Michael Dorosh Posted October 24, 2004 Share Posted October 24, 2004 In a recent PBEM/Playtest with one of the HSG boys (haven't heard from you in awhile, incidentally, Tom, hope all is well?) we were discussing tank gunnery and how supposedly well trained crews could miss at short ranges.... Ran across this quote today in the history of a Canadian tank regiment which I thought interesting. (Sergeant) Halkyard had been out that way in the morning with his tank and a Sherman troop. Halkie was in the lead and "it was a beautiful morning,"George Hallimore recalled, when suddenly "right out of the ground ahead of us a couple of hundred yards, right out of the ground from a ditch or dug-out," like some primeval behemoth, lumbered their worst nightmare - a German Tiger II tank. Called the King, or Royal Tiger, this 68-ton monster from the Henschel factory at Cassel, with face-hardened armour plate up to four inches thick and an 88 mm gun almost longer than their Stuart, represented the ultimate in Wehrmacht tank design. "Get in, reverse, back up!" Halkyard shouted at his driver, Sonny Plotsky, just as the first 88 round hit nearby and the "dust rose, the tank was just full of dust." Plotsky threw the automatic transmission into reverse but the tank nearly stalled because his foot was on the gas pedal and there were some anxious seconds until the Stuart jerked backwards. Another round came in, and then another - that "bugger fired three shots at us and missed," remembered Gallimore, which allowed Halkyard to take cover behind a building where the four Shermans of their supporting troop were waiting. The (Regiment) only had one weapon that could even damage a Tiger and that was a 17-pdr. so the support troop's Firefly moved up to fire and was just as promptly knocked out. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daft Posted October 24, 2004 Share Posted October 24, 2004 Which book is the quote from? It sounds very interesting. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Tittles Posted October 24, 2004 Share Posted October 24, 2004 This, like many short ranged engagements, is not typical of German Tank Gunnery. The action describes two vehicles that have moved. The Stuart is moving and so did the Tiger when it came out of the ditch. The conditions seem to be very dusty and the report states that the first miss raised enough dust to fill the stuart interior. The Tiger guns firing may have raised dust on his end. The stuart is also a small fast vehicle. The range, while not too short, is not within SOP for engaging targets. Interesting none the less. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonS Posted October 24, 2004 Share Posted October 24, 2004 Yes of course, any miss is - almost by definition - not typical of German gunnery. daft, unless I miss my mark (and since I'm not German, who knows what the odds of that are, eh? ) it is from The South Albertas: A Canadian regiment at war, by Donald Graves. A very, very good regimental history. It goes into a fair a,mount of detail of the mechanics of how the unit fought, rather than just focussing on personalities. Jon 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daft Posted October 25, 2004 Share Posted October 25, 2004 Thank you Jon! It very much sounds like something I would be very interested in. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Dorosh Posted October 25, 2004 Author Share Posted October 25, 2004 JonS is right of course - the book was out of print but the author wrote me a while back to tell me of a second printing. I wasn't attempting to discuss German gunnery in general - though Mr. Tittles and JonS do raise some good points. Just suggesting that there are reasons our cyber troopies don't always do as well as we might like...scared feet on accelerator pedals, dust flying...etc. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redwolf Posted October 25, 2004 Share Posted October 25, 2004 One of the small paperbacks of American officers in the ETO described something similar. I think it is "if you survive" by George Wilson (?). He describes how he is caught (on foot) between a Sherman and a Pz IV who came into each other's sight very suddenly, at short range. Both tank crews were so confused that both fired several shots before the Sherman hit. I think the range was 100 meters and the number of shots (both tanks) 8 or 9. I can look it up if you want. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Dorosh Posted October 25, 2004 Author Share Posted October 25, 2004 Originally posted by Redwolf: One of the small paperbacks of American officers in the ETO described something similar. I think it is "if you survive" by George Wilson (?). He describes how he is caught (on foot) between a Sherman and a Pz IV who came into each other's sight very suddenly, at short range. Both tank crews were so confused that both fired several shots before the Sherman hit. I think the range was 100 meters and the number of shots (both tanks) 8 or 9. I can look it up if you want. I don't know about them, but I want.... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daft Posted October 25, 2004 Share Posted October 25, 2004 Originally posted by Michael Dorosh: I don't know about them, but I want.... So do I. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
General Bolt Posted October 25, 2004 Share Posted October 25, 2004 Was there a date on this story? King Tiger in dust could have been Apr/May 45 which could mean a green German crew with poor skills as the war was coming to its end. If it was in Normandy could have been too much schnapps the night before. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Tittles Posted October 25, 2004 Share Posted October 25, 2004 There were many probs with late KT. Including no sights! In Panzerjaeger, the author describes being offered to man one with his ATG crew. They declined! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Tittles Posted October 25, 2004 Share Posted October 25, 2004 Rexford recently did a very good analysis of German Tank Gunnery. He used actual AT school requirements (they had to hit X ranged target within Y rounds), battlefield reports (number of rounds per kill) and then the dispersion data from the guns to come at a very good model for tank gunnery. The name of this thread should be an anectodal type. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redwolf Posted October 25, 2004 Share Posted October 25, 2004 I'll look it up when I come home. It was in Normandy, one of the first days after the author arrived. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Dorosh Posted October 25, 2004 Author Share Posted October 25, 2004 Originally posted by General Colt: Was there a date on this story? King Tiger in dust could have been Apr/May 45 which could mean a green German crew with poor skills as the war was coming to its end. If it was in Normandy could have been too much schnapps the night before. October 1944. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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