How Valuable Should My VLs Be?

[Treeburst155]

I'm designing a Two-Player scenario. It's a 5,000 point attack/defend situation. The attacker's briefing states that the objective is to take three hilltops. It also says that heavy casualties are likely, due to enemy strength estimates; but the job must still be done.

Naturally, I want my victory locations to be on the three hilltops that constitute the objective; but should I use a small flag, a large flag, or even several small or large flags to mark the VLs?

To answer this question, I need to define one of the victory types for one side or the other. For example, I could define what the attacker must accomplish to achieve a Tactical Victory. I think I'll do that.

Based on the briefing, the attacker's losses are expected to be high. They will indeed be high, because my scenario is well balanced, the defending force nearly the size of the attacking force. With this in mind, I think an attacker who manages to control all three VLs and stay fairly close to a 1:1 casualty ratio, has done quite well in my scenario. I would want the attacking player to receive a Tactical Victory for this accomplishment.

Now that I've defined a Tactical Victory for the attacker, I need to make sure the VLs give him this level of victory (if he manages a 1:1 casualty ratio). I do this by adjusting the total value of the victory locations.

Important to determining the value of these VLs, is the defender's likely losses. This is so because of the way CM battles are scored. What percentage of the total defending force will likely become casualties? Based on my playtesting, the defender is likely to lose 75% of his total force points when confronted with an equally skilled attacker. With this in mind, and the 1:1 casualty ratio I'm allowing for the attacker in his Tactical Victory requirements, I have what I need to calculate the total value of the three victory locations on the map.

So, the defender will likely lose 3,750 points (75% of his total 5,000). This figure will be matched by attacker losses in our 1:1 situation. Armed with this information, I go to The Proving Grounds to use the new "VL Planner". In a short time, through trial and error with different numbers of flags, the tool will tell me how many VL points I need on the map to give the attacker his Tactical Victory, as I've defined it. I then divide this number of points however I see fit among the three victory locations in my scenario. That's all there is to it.

In my scenario above, the total VL points on the map needs to be 2,700-3,000 pts. to generate a Tactical Victory for the attacker if he takes all the flags and maintains a 1:1 casualty ratio with the defender. This means each of my three VLs should have AT LEAST three large flags on them! How many large attack/defend scenarios do you see with anywhere near this amount of VL points on the map, and in the hands of the defender exclusively at setup?

I've just created a scenario that will likely produce superior gameplay. Not only that, I did it without messing with anything but the value of the VLs.

Treeburst155 out.

[ March 12, 2004, 02:29 AM: Message edited by: Treeburst155 ]

[Redwolf]

For what they are worth, here are my old CMBO notes on victory points. All of this still applies, except you don't have to do the complicated math onthe victory screen, CMBB and CMAK already display a breakup of the points.

How is the victory level calculated? - flags, knockouts, exits, maths

The overall score is computed by points you get from possessing flags

and from point you get from knocking out enemy units.

Flags are controlled by one player or nobody (they are neutral) and

they have a certain value, 300 points for the big ones, 100 points for

the small ones.

Units have a certain value, usually it is what you know from the

scenario editor or Quickbattle units selection. The players get

points for eliminating or capturing opponent's units.

So there are three parties who can get points:

- Player A (flags and knockout points)

- Player B (flags and knockout points)

- neutral (flags only)

Also calculate the absolute sum of all points, all flags and and all

knockout points combined.

Victory level for player A is then:

player_A_combatpoints + player_A_flagpoints

------------------------------------------------------------------ * 100.0

player_A_combatpoints + player_B_combatpoints + sum_of_flagpoints

Combat Points notes:

- The size of the force the player started with does not matter. That

also means that it is irrelevant how many intact units are left at

the end of the game. Losses are counted as they are, by unit cost.

No divisor or weighting whatsoever to the original force size or to

the force still on the map is used.

- Captured units count 2 times as much (I noticed it may be more for

some cases, but didn't measure).

- Broken or routed status do not influence victory level. (They do

not secure flags, however).

- Units that exited the map count as intact. There are tons of

reasons not to withdraw units from the map - you need them to secure

victory flags, inflict more casualties and bodyguard other units so

that the opponents does not raise his kill count. Still, for the

calculation of the score it doesn't matter whether they exited or

are still on the map. What edge of the map the units exited does

not matter. Things are different for units that should exit for

points, obviously. Note that while exiting your units does not

lower your victory level, it lowers global morale. Captured unit

must be exited from over your map edge to count, any other edge

frees them.

- Units like artillery spotters do not count the cost you payed to buy

them. It regular arty spotters count 30 points and it seems other

experience cost the same.

- Crews from knocked out vehicles, mortars etc. are costly when

killed, about 6 points for a regular crewmember, about 8 for veteran

(that is about what HQ men are worth). Since crews cannot defend

themself, withdraw them or hide them well. It may even pay to

invest other resources to rescue them. When you loose an onboard

81mm mortar, you more than double the damage if you loose the 6

man-crew as well. Not to speak of a captured crew, as always it

counts twice.

- Units that can be partially destroyed count with the percentage of

casualties, approximately. When a squad that costs 18 points and

consists of 12 men looses 4 men, the opponent gets approximate 6

points. "Approximate" because it seems that the points are not

distributed evenly over the squad, the more costly smallarms seem to

be more valuable. Losing the LMG seems to be worse than using a

rifle. Not entirely sure and too lazy to measure, though.

- There is a bug in CMBO 1.12 that in split squads the second half

counts as knocked out. Recombine them before the game ends.

Calculation example

- Two flags, 300 + 100 points, Player A controls both

- Player A has 237 combat points

- Player B has 187 combat points

Player A: 237 + 400 / (187 + 237 + 400) * 100 = 77%

Player B: 187 + 0 / (187 + 237 + 400) * 100 = 23%

77/23 = 3.35 = major victory

Should you rush that flag?

In the previous example, should Player B rush the small flag and make

it neutral?

Player A: 237 + 300 / (187 + 237 + 400) * 100 = 65%

Player B: 187 + 0 / (187 + 237 + 400) * 100 = 23%

65/23 = 2.8 = still a major victory

But when rushing, the player usually takes casualties, lets say B

looses 270 points (1.5 plattons + 1 tank) and only inflicts 50 points

on the opponent (1/5 platoon) for making the small flag neutral:

Player A: 507 + 300 / (507 + 237 + 400) * 100 = 70%

Player B: 237 + 0 / (507 + 237 + 400) * 100 = 21%

70/21 = 3.3 = still major victory

OK, another example, that one was a bit extreme, you have to be a bit

stupid to sacrifice so many units for a small flag.

Lets say player A has inflicted 800 knockout points and sits on the

only 300. Player B didn't have his best day, inflicted 150 knockout

point and has no flags.

Victory level:

Player A (800 + 300) / (800 + 300 + 150) = 88%

Player B has the other 12%

= 7.33

You rush the flag, make it neutral, and lose 120 points for making the

300 points flag neutral. That should be a plus, shouldn't it?

Player A 920 / (920 + 300 + 150) = 67%

So far so good. But since the flag is neutral, you don't have the

other 33%.

Player B 150 / (920 + 300 + 150) = 10%

= 6.7

As you see, the rush doesn't really make a difference, lost is lost,

and by making the flag neutral you make knockout points more

important, which is bad if you had more losses.

Mixed observations

The more casualties there are in the game, the less important do the

victory flags become. For a meeting engagements with 2x 1000 points

there are usually 300 or 400 points in flags. If both players

together loose 1000 points (half their force), the flag (if only one

300 flag) only makes for 23% of the points that are distributed at the

end of the game. If both players together loose 200 points (1/10th of

the forces), the flag makes 60% of distributed points.

If you have no chance of controlling the flags anymore and you can

trade units 1:1, do it.

If on the other hand you sit on the flags, try to avoid combat with

1:1 trades, it lowers your victory level.

Light vehicles and kamikaze recon

If you do aggressive recon with vehicles bought for that purpose, it

may be more expensive than you think.

One M3A1, one Jeep MG and one M20 utility car cost 95 points. They

have 9 men of crew. If one third of the men gets away, one third gets

incapacitated and one third gets captured, that means 45 points for

the opponent from the crews alone.

Not having total victory after enemy surrender

People frequently complain like this: "the opponents surrendered and I

got less than 100% victory points and hence not a total victory. If

the battle would continue, I would control all flags and totally

eliminate or even capture the opponent's force. I want the game to

continue or at least give me 100% victory when the opponents

surrenders."

If the situation is like this:

- There is one flag worth 300 pt. It does not matter whether you

control it or not yet, because after the opponent surrenders you do

in any case.

- You had losses of 600 points.

- Your opponents had 750 points losses, has moved 150 points over the

map edge (units also do that by themself when they route) and still

has units worth 100 points on the map.

You say you will knockout or capture these remaining 100 point units

and that will give you 100% victory since you have all flags and the

opponents no units.

Wrong. You had heavy losses and that prevents you from scoring total

victory. After your losses happened, there is no way to make it good.

What happens?

If he surrenders, you get all the flags. So far so good, 300 points

for you. All enemy units that are still on the map go into captivity.

Good, capturing the units worth 100 points brings you 200 victory

points. You already made 750 knockout points in normal combat. The

enemy units that already escaped over the map edge are gone, you don't

get kill or capture points for them. And by surrendering the opponent

does not give away the points he already gained in combat against you.

You already had lost units worth 600 points and you don't get them

back no matter what, even if the opponent surrenders.

End result, you get 300 + 750 + 200 points. Total points are these

1250 points of yours (includes flag), plus the 600 points the

opponents already gained. Hence:

1250

---- = 68% victory

1850

Ups. Now what would happen if the fight continued? You would probably

have killed more of the enemy units, more units would escape over the

map edge and some would be captured. Let's say from the 100 points

your opponents are 33 killed, 34 escaped and 33 captured and you have

additional losses of 25 points. You gain 33 + 2x33 = 99 points

instead of 200 that are the surrender result. And your opponent has

625 instead of 600. Hence the victory level at the end would be:

300 + 750 + 99

-------------------- = 65% victory

300 + 750 + 99 + 625

No matter what you do, at the very best you can do as good as the

surrender result. So the surrender is never to the disadvantage of

the victor, as people often think.

Or to say it in other words: the damage that denied you total

victory has already been done before the opponents surrendered. If

you loose units in the order of magnitude that the flag value is, your

points are gone and stay gone. You can make up for your losses by

inflicting new losses, but if the enemy surrenders its losses are at

guaranteed to be at the maximum, you could never do better if the game

continued.

Other examples

If you would control both flags, and no side inflicted any losses, you

plain and simply gain 100:0 victory.

So, now imagine the same situation, you sit on all 400 points worth of

flags, but you and your opponent traded two tanks, so that each party

gets 120 knockout points. Then you win only 81:19, which is only a

major, not total, victory. Do not trade units 1:1 if you sit on the

flags.

Exact percentages for victory levels

For you reference:

1:1.25 55% minor victory

1:1.75 64% tactical victory

1:2.5 71% major victory

1:5 83% total victory

Testing yourself

You want to know how much a unit is worth in knockout points?

Build a scenario, with only one small flag.

Add the unit you want to test to one force and add some

flamethrower infantry teams to the same force. Give the other force

something that is dangerous and invulnerable, i.e. buttoned tanks with

two MGs each (obviously something else when you want to test for the

value of a Pueppchen...).

Place the extra flamethrowers somewhere in woods, make sure they stay

away from the flag, and don't ever get seem by the enemy. The only

purpose of these flamethrowers is to prevent auto-surrender.

Place the unit you want to test between the enemy tanks so that it

is captured or killed. If you want to test its exit value, place it

somewhere else so that it can't be killed and can exit.

You start the scenario in hotseat. Play until the unit, and only

the unit you want to test for is KOed. If anybody else got harmed,

restart. For exit situation, exit it, obviously.

Once the situation is ripe, you do a cease-fire (not surrender).

The flag should be neutral (it must be!). If it is neutral, the

displayed percentages for the two forces don't add up to 100%, because

neutral has a flag. This eliminates the unknown from the equotation.

Since you know that neutral has exactly 100 victory points from the

flag and the superior force has no losses, you know that all other

points are the victory points for the one dead (or exited) unit and

you can calculate it from the displayed percentage. If the percentage

shows Axis 20% and Allied 0%, you know that the sum of all points must

be 125, of which 100 are for the flag, hence the killed unit was worth

25 points.

I'm happy to do the math for you if you run the scenario and give

me the points. (Really. Mail me or post).

Exit scenarios

Exit scenarios, complicated stuff.

Units that are eligible for exit points have a certain value with

regards for exit, in addition to the value they bring when k.o.'ed or

captured like any other unit.

The amount of exit points is not constant, for sharpshooters and

trucks it is cost * 2.7, for flamethrower teams and guns it is cost *

2.3.

I didn't test for more units so far, but I guess it depends on speed

and/or transport class. The slower stuff shouldn't ruin the exiting

player when he can't bring them over. Respectively it is usually driven

over the edge in transport which is not such a big deal. This is

obviously a balancing mechanism to make it more fair, I only wonder

why BTS didn't tell us about it, it is only useful if you know it.

Anyway..., logic here is (for sharpshooter and truck):

- exited like it should: player gets (cost * 2.7) points

- not exited like it should: opponent gets (cost * 2.7) points

- killed: opponent gets (cost * (2.7 + 1.0)) points

- captured: opponent gets (cost * (2.7 + 2.0)) points

For flamethrower teams and trucks insert 2.3 instead of 2.7.

No further complications may arrive from units with crews. After

knockout of the weapon the crew does not have "should exit for points"

status. That would be really nasty for 81mm mortars which have 26

points value in the weapon, but 36 in the crew

It seems to be that such scenarios are impossible to play (not to

speak of scenario designing) without this knowledge. You have to make

straight calculations which unit you will engage in a battle with 1:1

chances to protect other units. Maybe newer manual editions have more

infos? Otherwise I will start testing all units and build some nice

exit scenarios.

Global Morale, flag possession

I have no intention to do a similar analysis for other aspects of

the game, namely global morale and the details of flag possession.

In my opinion, understanding of this scoring system is very

important, especially for scenario designers, and then especially for

exit scenarios, or partly-exit scenarios.

Exact knowledge of morale issues would lead to too much

game-mechanics oriented play, and for flags - just defend them

properly and you'll be fine.

Scenario designer consulting

I am happy to help scenario designers with getting the results they

want from their scenarios. I won't tell them how many flags and where

to place them. Instead I will give examples like "if force A

eliminates 30% or the opponent and B eliminates 25% of A and you have

these and these flags, then the score will be <x>".

In these calculations I will have units that have different

knockout from purchase points already taken into account, and I will

give enough examples to form a useful opinion - the designer's

opinion, not mine, that is.

Unfortunately, many scenario designers seem to think knowledge

about victory points is for gamey bastards only and refuse to even

think about it :-/

However, the few times people asked me I had good results and

people thought it was helpful. Right-tuning flags and exit status

will prevent game result the designer didn't intend, it increases the

designer's ability to reward those players who play well in the sense

he had in mind. This especially applies to scenarios with exit

points, scenarios with only some units for exit points, scenario where

one side has many vehicles and the other was grunts'n'ary.

Of course, I maintain confidentiality when requested in case the

scenario isn't yet published or is to be used in tournaments.

[Treeburst155]

Yes, Redwolf, virtually everything I know about CM scoring has come from you, over the years. You are THE CM scoring guru.

BTW, now that I have you here, what was the deal with the fortifications and crews? I've forgotten. All I remember is that they were being scored wrong in some way.

Thanks for all the hours you have spent figuring out CM scoring over the years.

Treeburst155 out.

[Redwolf]

CMBB 1.03 has a bug that fortifications instantly and always count as knockout points for the attacker. Actually I just posted a workaround over at the CMBB zone.

All CM version so far have this bug (from my list in the official bug thread):

Crews killed inside a vehicle

If a vehicle is so heavily hit that none of the crew makes it out no

victory points for the crew are awarded. If at least one man makes it

out then everything works fine. For example, if one man of a 5-men

crew makes it out victory points are given for 4 crew casualties and

if the last man is killed for 5. The bug only affects the situation

that no crew marker ever appears on the map.

Suggested fix: correct counting.

Suggested easier fix: I assume that Charles has difficulties counting

anything for which no markers exists on the map. If that is the case,

then a good fix would be to never let all men die in the vehicles,

always let at least one man escape. Certainly a better situation than

the current one.

Impact: medium impact on Quickbattlers who usually play expensive

enough vehicles that the crew victory points don't have much impact.

Bigger impact on scenario players who often play with very cheap and

thin vehicles with big crews and shoot them up with 88s. In that case

a non-survivors vehicles kill is a) common and the victory points

for the crew are not neglectable compared to the points for the

vehicle itself.

[Treeburst155]

Very interesting, Redwolf. Thanks! I'll be checking out your fortification problem workaround now.

Treeburst155 out.

[Treeburst155]

Bumped because it's necessary. Really, it is.......necessary.

Treeburst155 out.