QB Bug: 'Medium XP= Conscripts & Greens?'

[MrSpkr]

I set up a couple of QBs, allowing the computer to choose forces. May 1941, Crete, 1500 pt Allied probe, I am German Airborne. The settings indicated German Airborne, Medium Experience, Fit, full ammo. First try I allowed random casualties.

That try gave me exactly THREE regular units, all others were green or conscript, including a company HQ.

The second try, I set it for zero casualties, in case that was throwing the computer off. This time, about half the force was green, one quarter was conscript, one quarter was green.

Sorry, but I didn't think Fallschirmjagers in 1941 could even BE "conscript" (or green, for that matter).

BTS please fix or do somefink!

Steve

[ January 12, 2004, 10:49 AM: Message edited by: MrSpkr ]

[Cogust]

The AI apparently bought you green Landsers (green and regular are considered medium experience in CMAK) and then a small parcentage will be better/worse than the average experience(regulars or conscripts).

I hope that ansewrs the question.

[MrSpkr]

But these were German Airborne troops on Crete -- there would not have been ANY infantry with "conscript" quality in the Fallschirmjager Korps (in fact, IIRC, previous versions of CM didn't allow you to even purchase conscript Fallschirmjager). And, if green/regular = medium (something with which I would STRONGLY argue) why didn't I get a single Veteran unit (and why were the units so overwhelmingly green/conscript, to the point that the conscripts outnumbered the regulars)?

Steve

[dalem]

I've been surprised by the amounts of Green and Conscripts too. That is purely anecdotal of course - I've not done any real "testing" for QB forces except where I noted that the AI only picks Engineers for U.S. Mech infantry forces.

But I did try a "Crete" QB the other day and took the Brits and ended up with a ton of Brit Conscript Airborne. Medium setting too. That surprised me too.

-dale

[MrSpkr]

I think tonight I'll try running a couple of dozen setups using identical parameters, only with FOW on "None" and see what I get. I think this is a bug, not a feature.

Steve

[WWB]

Originally posted by MrSpkr:

But these were German Airborne troops on Crete -- there would not have been ANY infantry with "conscript" quality in the Fallschirmjager Korps (in fact, IIRC, previous versions of CM didn't allow you to even purchase conscript Fallschirmjager). And, if green/regular = medium (something with which I would STRONGLY argue) why didn't I get a single Veteran unit (and why were the units so overwhelmingly green/conscript, to the point that the conscripts outnumbered the regulars)?

Steve

CM's autopurchaser is not all that smart when it comes to history. Set it at high if you want the FJs at crete.

Regarding conscript FJs, there were alot of them in 45, when the LW ran out of plans and started handing out rifles.

WWB

[MrSpkr]

Originally posted by WWB:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by MrSpkr:

But these were German Airborne troops on Crete -- there would not have been ANY infantry with "conscript" quality in the Fallschirmjager Korps (in fact, IIRC, previous versions of CM didn't allow you to even purchase conscript Fallschirmjager). And, if green/regular = medium (something with which I would STRONGLY argue) why didn't I get a single Veteran unit (and why were the units so overwhelmingly green/conscript, to the point that the conscripts outnumbered the regulars)?

Steve

CM's autopurchaser is not all that smart when it comes to history. Set it at high if you want the FJs at crete.

Regarding conscript FJs, there were alot of them in 45, when the LW ran out of plans and started handing out rifles.

WWB </font>

[Sergei]

What Cogust was explaining is that the auto-purchaser could choose green or regular quality. Well, it chose green. Now, a portion of those would be level lower, and a comparable portion level higher. Thus you get conscripts, greens and regulars.

It's not really a bug, it's just something that the auto-purchaser can do and you could do manually as well. Though you could argue that the a-p should have a higher tendency to pick regulars when you have selected medium quality. Or even better, it should buy both quality levels available, in this case greens and regulars. Right now it just picks one of them and sticks on it.

[MrSpkr]

Originally posted by Sergei:

It's not really a bug, it's just something that the auto-purchaser can do and you could do manually as well. Though you could argue that the a-p should have a higher tendency to pick regulars when you have selected medium quality. Or even better, it should buy both quality levels available, in this case greens and regulars. Right now it just picks one of them and sticks on it.

I'd argue that it should tend to pick the higher of the two qualities, particualrly when you are talking about "medium" quality troops. Otherwise, there is no qualititative difference between "low" and "medium" troops.

I further hypothesize that the AI tends to choose the lower fo the two more often than not. I will run an experiment this evening to see if that hypothesis is accurate.

Steve

[Sergei]

I remember there being some talk (concerning CMBB) by the BFC that this also depends on whether rarity is on; rarity on supposedly would give more historic choices (maybe when quality is unrestricted?). But I don't really know if that is true. Please do test!

[Michael Emrys]

Originally posted by MrSpkr:

I further hypothesize that the AI tends to choose the lower fo the two more often than not. I will run an experiment this evening to see if that hypothesis is accurate.

This is certainly the case and goes all the way back to CMBO. I always bought my own units but let the A-P purchase the enemy's units, and I noticed that in nearly every case I observed it purchased the lowest experience level available in whatever range I set for it to choose from. It seemed to prefer quantity over quality. Since then, if I want to be sure the enemy has high quality units—but not too high—I buy for them.

Michael

[dalem]

Originally posted by Michael Emrys:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by MrSpkr:

I further hypothesize that the AI tends to choose the lower fo the two more often than not. I will run an experiment this evening to see if that hypothesis is accurate.

This is certainly the case and goes all the way back to CMBO. I always bought my own units but let the A-P purchase the enemy's units, and I noticed that in nearly every case I observed it purchased the lowest experience level available in whatever range I set for it to choose from. It seemed to prefer quantity over quality. Since then, if I want to be sure the enemy has high quality units—but not too high—I buy for them.

Michael </font>

[MrSpkr]

Originally posted by dalem:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Michael Emrys:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by MrSpkr:

I further hypothesize that the AI tends to choose the lower fo the two more often than not. I will run an experiment this evening to see if that hypothesis is accurate.

This is certainly the case and goes all the way back to CMBO. I always bought my own units but let the A-P purchase the enemy's units, and I noticed that in nearly every case I observed it purchased the lowest experience level available in whatever range I set for it to choose from. It seemed to prefer quantity over quality. Since then, if I want to be sure the enemy has high quality units—but not too high—I buy for them.

Michael </font>

[dalem]

Originally posted by MrSpkr:

That's been my experience as well, dalem. I think CMBB was pretty good about mixing in a few greens and a few vets with regulars if you chose "medium" experience. I don't remember any problems of this nature with CMBO.

Steve

I haven't played BB enough to get a feel for it in that way.

-dale

[kgsan]

Actually in CMBB before the final patch I seemed to notice a tendency of the computer to pick green forces when I set the experience at medium but let the AI purchase the forces.

I tended to play early war QB's and was surprised at the number of times the computer provided me with green German troops. The frequency seemed to decline after the last patch. However, I never saw anything in the documentation that BFC had changed anything in this regard, so go figure.

[Cogust]

As I said above, I was apparently not clear enough, the AI picks one experience for ALL the troops it purchases and it has been this way since BO. In CMBO medium meant 'regular or veteran' but in CMBB this changed to 'green or regular' and it's still that way in CMAK.

In CMBB and CMAK a percentage of the units will either have more or less experience than advertised. Hence you'll get a few greens and veterans if the AI picked regular forces and you would get a few conscripts and regulars if the AI picked green forces. I don't know how often the AI picks 'regulars' compared to how often it picks 'green', this would be very easy to test if you're interested, but my gut feeling is that the AI is just as likely to pick green troops as it is to pick regular troops if the quality is set to medium.

[MOS was 71331]

Perhaps the AI's purchasing scheme is to allocate its available points equally above and below the chosen quality level. It has, say, 1000 points to spend on units of medium quality so it puts 500 points into regulars and 250 points each into veterans and greens. Green units cost less than vets, so it will be buying more green units than vet units if it allocates the same number of points to each group. That might explain an apparent bias toward lower quality units.

[Kozure]

Here's a pretty weird anomaly to throw another wrench in the works.

To check your findings, I ran a 2-player hot-seat quick battle. June 1943, all combined. US Mechanized combined arms, German Heer Infantry combined arms, 2000 pts of random medium quality units for both. Standard rarity.

I jump in and check the experience levels on both sides.

US forces are pretty much what I'd expect - the majority are regular, with a few green and a few veteran thrown in.

The Germans on the other hand are mostly green, with a smattering of conscript and a few regulars. Not a veteran to be seen.

Very strange. I only ran the QB with these settings before I had to move on to other things (see "How about those M3 Turrets?" thread above) but with 2000 pts of units, and medium quality, one would expect a more experienced selection of troops for the Germans.

One would expect fewer but more experienced troops for the Germans and more troops with less experience for the Americans... it's almost as though the selection patterns are reversed.

I'll run a few more QBs and note actual force compositions for tonight.

[Cogust]

Read my post above and you'll see what happened in your test.

In the first test the AI bought regulars for the Amis and Greens for the Germans. It can't choose any other experience for the troops as only Green and Regular troops are available when the quality is set to 'Medium', try it yourself, you can't BUY Veterans but you'll get a few Vets if you buy Regulars.

In a QB a percentage of both sides will have a different experience than they had when they were bought (some will be more experienced and some will be less experienced). In the test the Americans got a few Greens and Veterans as expected and the Germans received a few Conscripts and Regulars. This thing is true regarless if you or the AI buy the troops, if you buy all Regulars you'll get a few Greens and Veterans as well.

[Kozure]

Originally posted by Cogust:

Read my post above and you'll see what happened in your test.

In the first test the AI bought regulars for the Amis and Greens for the Germans. It can't choose any other experience for the troops as only Green and Regular troops are available when the quality is set to 'Medium', try it yourself, you can't BUY Veterans but you'll get a few Vets if you buy Regulars.

In a QB a percentage of both sides will have a different experience than they had when they were bought (some will be more experienced and some will be less experienced). In the test the Americans got a few Greens and Veterans as expected and the Germans received a few Conscripts and Regulars. This thing is true regarless if you or the AI buy the troops, if you buy all Regulars you'll get a few Greens and Veterans as well.

I've read both of your replies. I understand fully the small numbers of units above and below the baseline. What I'm not clear on is why "baseline" for medium quality American troops is "regular" when "baseline" for medium quality German troops is "green".

Or is what you're saying that the AI pre-picks a baseline (in the case of medium troops, green or regular) and then proceed to buy 'volume' based on that baseline?

[Sergei]

Originally posted by Kozure:

Or is what you're saying that the AI pre-picks a baseline (in the case of medium troops, green or regular) and then proceed to buy 'volume' based on that baseline?

The auto-pick AI has two choices available when you have chosen "medium quality": green or regular. It will take only one of those. It won't, for instance, buy half points worth regular and half green. Just green or regular. Then after it has bought the forces, these are randomized a bit. I hope this explained it.

[Kozure]

Well, that's pretty much what I surmised in the last post. Odd way of doing things... but who am I to question the CM Gods?

So, if Medium quality troops are baseline regular and green... High quality troops are baseline regular and veteran or veteran and crack? Similarly, are poor troops baseline green and conscript?

(Incidentally, if I'm unclear about what I mean by baseline, I'm saying that the majority of the troops are of that quality, with a few varying above and below that quality)

[MrSpkr]

Okay, preliminary results here.

Out of 25 tests, 1500 German QB, May 1941 (Crete), germans as infantry only (falschirmjagers), Medium Quality, Fit, no casualties, I found the computer has an enormous pre-disposition to select "green" as the German baseline.

On each of the 25 times, I believe green was the base line based upon the spread of forces. In those instances, approximately 72% of the forces (on average) were green; about 20% were conscript; about 8% were regulars. No veterans or higher ever appeared.

I then ran some tests to see what I would get for "high" quality troops. Tne tests. Each time, "crack" seemed to be the baseline; I also would receive a few elite and a few veterans (I did not keep count of how many, but it appeared to be about 10-15% of elite and veteran.

This seems very much out of whack. IIRC, in previous CMs, "low" quality troops were those with green morale. Medium quality were those with Regular morale. High quality were those with Veteran morale as the base. Elite units never appeared in randomly generated forces.

Now, it seems that if you use randomly generated forces, you should not expect to have more than ten-fifteen percent of your force to be of "regular" or "veteran" quality. I thought these two quality levels represented the majority of all troops from all nations in the war?

In fact, the CMAK manual describes "regular" troops as :

Properly trained, and most likely have some combat experience, though not extensive. Some units are a mix of seasoned veterans and fresh replacements (the typical way the Germans refitted units in Europe) and can also be considered regular. The majority of troops should be in this category.

CMAK Game Manual at 132 (emphasis added).

I understand that by selecting a troop quality/experience leve, I can opt outside of the norms, but if "regulars" are the majority, and I select "medium" quality, I shoudl get "regular" troops.

"Veteran" troops are:

...first line troops who received first-class training and/or have proven themselves in combat. Able to fight independently and overcome superior forces. Many airborne and SS troops, along with regular infantry units with long combat histories, are considered veterans.

Id.

"Green" troops are described as:

"Second line" troops. Received basic training but have little if any combat experience. Can also simulate troops used outside of their usual role, e.g., Luftwaffe crews used as foot soldiers.

This indicates (to me, at least), that Mountain Troops and AIrborne troops, both of which received extensive training, should, for the most part, NOT be green -- though there is no absolute prohibition on this.

The most interesting thing I found, however, was this:

Conscript

"Third line" troops who received little or no training, and have probably never been in battle. The Volkssturm formations of late war Germany are the primary examples. Very likely to panic or surrender when under enemy fire. Certain combat arms, like AIRBORNE TROOPS and Gebirgsjager -- mountain troops -- which always required a certain amount of training and physical fitness to be accepted within their ranks, CANNOT BE CONSCRIPTS.

Id. (emphasis added).

So, if airborne troops cannot be conscripts, why do I keep getting so many conscript Fallschirmjagers when I have the computer randomly purchase "medium" quality Fallschirmjagers? And why are "medium" quality troops "green" as a baseline?

I maintain this is a bug. The baseline should be "low quality" = baseline green troops; "medium quality" = baseline regular troops; "high" quality = baseline veteran troops. A certain percentage of each should be one level higher or lower than the baseline. Elite units should probably not appear in QBs with randomly selected forces.

BTS/BFC, please fix or do something.

Steve

[ January 13, 2004, 02:47 PM: Message edited by: MrSpkr ]

[Madmatt]

You of course are free to maintain whatever you want but my guess is Charles will not view this as a bug however I have directed him to look at this thread and the data that you have collected.

We can never stress enough that the Quick Battle generator is meant for quick and easy to get into games. The autopurchaser likes to get a lot for its money and those lower experience troops have a mighty attractive lower price point attached to them. The AI can never match the skills (quality) of an accomplished player so it likes to make up for that with quantities when it can.

Battles with full historical TO&E's should use the mission editor to create. Thats what it is there for.

Another option is to let someone else purchase the AI's troops for you.

Madmatt

[kgsan]

Mr Madmatt,

What about giving the player in a QB the option to set regular experience as the sole baseline for AI unit purchase? I think given the nature of the QB a lot of players might prefer this even if it is ahistorical.