Kingfish Posted May 30, 2004 Share Posted May 30, 2004 Makjager was kind enough to scan several pages from his book "The History of the 12th SS Panzer division "HitlerJugend" and e-mail them to me, this being reference material for an upcoming Op, and one particular passage caught my eye: "On August 6th, from 18.40 hours on, the 271.inf-div observed enemy rocket fire in the Grimbosq (9km west of Bretteville-sur Laize) and Thury-Harcourt sectors." What types of rockets did the allies use? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stalin's Organ Posted May 30, 2004 Share Posted May 30, 2004 Lots!! The US used 4.5" and 7.2" rockets - the later often mounted on top of Shermans and nicknamed "whizbang". The 4.5's were fired from a variety of launchers - the most spectacular probably being 60 tubes mounted above a Sherman turret and known as "Calliope". The main British Rocket was the 5" "Land Mattress", 12 of which went into actoin with hte Canadians in November 1944. From the dates in your passage it seems likely the rockets in question were American - although I can't say which calibre. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kingfish Posted May 30, 2004 Author Share Posted May 30, 2004 Actually, it was the British 59th division that launched the assault on Grimbosq. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonS Posted May 30, 2004 Share Posted May 30, 2004 RAF rockets perhaps? Don't forget the Germans thought that the British had an auto-loading field artillery piece, so I'd reports of unusual (or unexpected) enemy with a large grain of salt. Regards JonS 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kingfish Posted May 30, 2004 Author Share Posted May 30, 2004 RAF rockets perhaps? Possible, although the time of day noted seems a bit late (to me at least) for CAS. Don't forget the Germans thought that the British had an auto-loading field artillery piece, so I'd reports of unusual (or unexpected) enemy with a large grain of salt. This seems more likely. The 271st ID didn't arrive in Normandy until late July, and may not have been "properly introduced" to British artillery until the Grimbosq assault. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonS Posted May 30, 2004 Share Posted May 30, 2004 Originally posted by Kingfish: </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />RAF rockets perhaps? Possible, although the time of day noted seems a bit late (to me at least) for CAS.</font> 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Mike Posted May 31, 2004 Share Posted May 31, 2004 american rockets supporting the British? Otherwise the only rockets I can think of would be the Naval Matress - the sea-borne version of the Land Mattress. but I have no idea whether it was used after D-Day at all. Is Grimbosq anywhere near the coast? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kingfish Posted May 31, 2004 Author Share Posted May 31, 2004 Originally posted by Mike: Is Grimbosq anywhere near the coast? No, it is SW of Caen on the east bank of the Orne. Too far for even Warspite to hit. Besides, why bother with NAS at all. According to Michael Reynolds in Steel inferno, the bridgehead was supported by 7 regiments of artillery. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigDork Posted May 31, 2004 Share Posted May 31, 2004 "the sheer length of the summer day - from 4.45 a.m. to 11.15 p.m. in the first weeks of June." I'm currently living in Germany so it's kinda close(right?). When I get up at 0630 it's already pretty light but since I have no intention of getting up at 0445 to find that out for sure I'll just leave that alone. As for 2315, right now it's still light enough to read at 2130 outside but by 2315 it's pretty dark. Even at the solstice it wouldn't be light enough for CAS at 2315. But there's still a bit of light at 2200, not a lot but some. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonS Posted May 31, 2004 Share Posted May 31, 2004 T-34 'Calliope' was first used in action in August 1944 by 2nd US Armd Div (Chamberlain: US and UK Tanks of WWII). 2nd US Armd Div took part in Op Cobra, starting July 25 west of St Lo. On Aug 7-8 2nd Armd Div was busily involved in crushing Op LUTTICH, operating in vic Vire and Mortain. (Wilmot: Strugle for Europe & Hastings: Overlord). Mortain is approx 50km SW of Thury Harcourt. Mortain is approx 35km WSW of Thury Harcourt.(Michelin Map 102: Battle of Normandy, reprint of 1947 map). I doubt that US Calliopes were present at Grimbosq - Thury Harcourt on 6th August. Regards JonS 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Mike Posted May 31, 2004 Share Posted May 31, 2004 Calliope wasn't the only launcher for the 4.5" rocket tho - there were a number of relatively light tube-launchers in service. I've got some photos in MacDonalds & Janes Factfile series on Rockets (which is where I got the info in the first place) - they seem even simpler and lighter then the 6-barreled nevbelwerfer launchers. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonS Posted May 31, 2004 Share Posted May 31, 2004 Right, but the other points stand - Vire was roughly the inter-Allied boundary, 35kms from TH. If it was rockets, I'd pin them as RAF-delivered. Regards JonS 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tar Posted May 31, 2004 Share Posted May 31, 2004 Well in the Forêt de Grimbosq on August 6, 1944: Sunset at 2030 GMT+1 (Standard German Time) Civil Twilight ends at 2100 Nautical Twilight ends at about 2200 Full moon (92% illuminated) rising at 2200. Sorry, but I don't have the weather. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonS Posted May 31, 2004 Share Posted May 31, 2004 Thanks tar. That means the rocket attack occurred some 2 hours before sunset, assuming that 1840 referenced above was in Standard German Time (SGT). Do you have the sunrise times also? That would allow better calibration of Hastings' times above, since I believe that the British were using Double (or more?) Daylight Savings (DDS) at the time, so SGT won't map directly (e.g., I think 1840 SGT = 2040 DDS). Actually, sunset at on 6th August at 2230 DDS (2030 SGT) means sunset had advanced 45 minutes in the intervening 2 months, which off the top of my head seems reasonable. Tar, could you please also look up sunrise and sunset for 'the first weeks of June' - Forêt de Grimbosq again would be fine - and see if it checks out with the Hastings quote above? There should be about 5 1/2 hours between sunrise and sunset. Cheers Jon 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kingfish Posted May 31, 2004 Author Share Posted May 31, 2004 Good lord Tar! You are taking us deep into the Grog forest with your last post. What next? The Lat / long coordinates of each soldier at any given time? Still, it is good to know these things, and I do appreciate the info. My op's starting point is now dusk as opposed to night. Jon, Just curious, would it be SOP for rocket- armed Typhoons to prep a crossing point? What would be the advantage of this over say a standard tube barrage? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonS Posted June 1, 2004 Share Posted June 1, 2004 Originally posted by Kingfish: Jon, Just curious, would it be SOP for rocket- armed Typhoons to prep a crossing point? What would be the advantage of this over say a standard tube barrage? Kingfish, I don't know about SOP, but I see no reason why not. The British fireplans became incredibly complicated and sophisticated as the war progressed, and combined elements from as many sources of firepower as were available. Depending on how far ahead the crossing was planned, it would be fairly normal to have CAS in support of it. Specifically, if the crossing was planned for or anticipated the night before (i.e., before 2359 on the 5th August) then a pre-planned CAS strike would be well within the realms of the feasible. Even if it wasn't, rustling up an impromptu CAS strike on a couple of hours notice was far from unheard of. Try and get hold of a copy of Ellis Victory in the west, vol I if you can. A university near you with a reasonable history department is likely to have one. This is a official Brit history for this part of WWII, and may cover this engagement in some detail. The volumes that cover the Med often go into a reasonable amount of detail on air matters, and it might note whether CAS was used on this occasion. [Edit (forgot a question):] The advantage isn't in using the RAF to fire rockets instead of standard artillery, the advantage is in getting the RAF to fire rockets as well as standard artillery. The combined effects of multiple sources of firepower is generally greater than the sum of its parts. A bit like combined arms in general really. [/edit] Regards JonS p.s. my guess is that tar used something like this, which indicates 7hrs 20mins of night, or 2 hours more than Hastings thinks. I guess there was a typo in the book. Anyway, regardless of the typo, there was still time for CAS to fly in daylight. [ May 31, 2004, 06:09 PM: Message edited by: JonS ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
c3k Posted June 1, 2004 Share Posted June 1, 2004 Gents, I seem to recall that the times used during WWII differed from our present usages. For example, German units, even in the depths of the Soviet Union, stayed on Berlin time. Could that be causing some of the daylight confusions? Clock grog? Ken 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tar Posted June 1, 2004 Share Posted June 1, 2004 OK, more times. August 6, Forêt de Grimbosq: Sunrise at 0540; Civil Twilight begins at 0510; Nautical Twilight at 0420. All times GMT+1, rounded to 10 minutes. For early June, I'll arbitrarily pick June 12th: Sunrise: 0500 Civil Twilight: 0420 Nautical Twilight: 0320 Sunset: 2110 Civil Twilight: 2140 Nautical Twilight: 2250 That gives 16 hours when the sun is up, and about 17 1/2 hours where there is decent natural light (i.e., civil twilight). For what it's worth, the sun is directly overhead there at 1310 GMT+1, so the "natural" time zone would be GMT itself. Some definitions (for ultra grog-ness): Civil Twilight Sun up to 6° below horizon. This is the limit at which twilight illumination is sufficient, under good weather conditions, for terrestrial objects to be clearly distinguished; Nautical Twilight Sun up to 12° below horizon. At the beginning or end of nautical twilight, under good atmospheric conditions and in the absence of other illumination, general outlines of ground objects may be distinguishable, but detailed outdoor operations are not possible, and the horizon is indistinct. Astronomical Twilight (which I didn't include) Sun up to 18° below horizon. Before the beginning of astronomical twilight in the morning and after the end of astronomical twilight in the evening the Sun does not contribute to sky illumination. Actually I used JPL's Emphemeris generator, set to Sun with the location, date and time zone specified: http://ssd.jpl.nasa.gov/cgi-bin/eph 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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