Help with an amazing! new C&C idea for CMX2

[Mr. Tittles]

The Soviet player has only 3 platoon(-) elements and 2 are under defend (defend is a subset of other SOPs but adds somewhat to the morale of the units that are under it). He has one platoon in reserve but its poorly trained and can only accept defend and movement as SOPs (Soviet movement SOP includes Human Wave though). The rest of his units are scattered and not 'platooned' and not really under C&C. The ATG and HMG are next to him and under his 'platoon'. Other units, like the scattered riflemen, are not even known to him where they are.

The soviet player is to hold the farm and stop all units from trying to get up the road. A runner has come from the town and the Soviet forces are grinding down the defenders. Tonight a fresh battalion will be available to destroy the Germans and relieve the farm position. The farm must be held and the town isolated from German reinforcements. A light recon platoon will be dispatched through the woods to reinforce the farm but it is not known when.

The Soviet therefore gives his units all covered arc commands and waits the Germans.

[ October 30, 2004, 04:34 PM: Message edited by: Mr. Tittles ]

[Mr. Tittles]

The German first turn goes off badly. The smoke is not quick enough and one of the PG platoons (B platoon, the one that is using running orders) gets zapped. A water cooled HMG inflicts casualties on most of this platoon and the B platoon HQ breaks. The StuGs can not see the HMG and fire at a lone riflemen who also opens up.

The other PG platoons take minor casualties and return fire. Only one platoon makes its first waypoint (A platoon).

The German commander starts his turn by assessing the damage. The broken B platoon HQ is selected and no menu opens up. This broken HQ has cancelled all waypoints automatically and given the B platoon a withdrawl SOP. All waypoints are gone and he has given a waypoint back to the starting jump off point! He is broken and sneaking backwards himself. One of his squads is also broken and doing likewise. Another is pinned but withdrawing. Clicking on this squad does nothing. The other squad is in good order but hiding. He has a remaining order of a move command (from the previous turn) and the German player can edit this remnant (The Hide is cancelled first). He stretches it up the road, but since numbnuts has set the waypoint in the opposite direction, there is a medium delay. No further orders can be given to this platoons elements. The fact that one squad was in good order and its Hide cancelled and move stretched was due to a LOS to the company HQ.

The broken platoon HQ has to rally first or the company or Bn HQs must take over physically before this platoon gets back in the war. The broken HQ and squad are attempting to get behind smoke so this must be kept up.

The next German platoon (C platoon led by company HQ) is activated and it has a pinned HQ unit. The platoons SOP was auto changed to Defend. Most of the units squads therefore 'halted' and the existing movement orders were put on hold by a substantial delay. Its waypoints are still intact. They returned fire while halted and they actually have a good LOS to the HMG. They will then be a base of fire to suppress the HMG. All is not lost.

The remaining platoon (A platoon) was the lucky one with the extra advance command bonus last time. Its HQ is in good order and still on the game plan. He reached his first waypoint and his SOP is now Attack! as per plan. This lets him plot moves that will reach fairly good cover while the other platoons cover them. Unfortunately, they will be moving at a right angle to the HMG and can not use assault fire to its best effect. The HQ then issues advance commands to the platoon members.

The StuG platoon continues to move towards the HMG threat with two StuGs and will be able to Hunt into LOS sometime within the next turn. The other StuG is given a smoke command again and three pauses (its smoke ammo will run out soon). It will then hunt forward along the road. There si a slight delay on top of the pauses because the movement, while parallel to the StuG platoon waypoint, is offset 100m away.

The FO has reached a position where he can see the farm and is getting the arty on the way. The mortar HT continues its smoke mission and the Bn HQ gets his HT over to the stricken platoon to kick some Lt ass.

[ October 31, 2004, 09:27 AM: Message edited by: Mr. Tittles ]

[Mr. Tittles]

The soviet player sees the sound contacts for the AFV and decides that he will let them get close. They must want to get his Maxim but in doing so, they will face the 45mm ATG. He decides to continue firing at the German infantry with the HMG. He activates the dug in platoon on his right and they are given covered arc orders so that they open up on the Germans before they get to the next patch of woods along the road. He activates the reserve platoon and sends them forward towards the map edge (where the Germans are intent on leaving) by issuing a Movement SOP and selecting the waypoint that was preplanned. The reserve platoon had two waypoints preplanned, one towards the map edge and one towards the farm.

[ October 31, 2004, 08:40 AM: Message edited by: Mr. Tittles ]

[Mr. Tittles]

The next turn continues to give the German headaches. The two StuG hunt forward but keep halting and firing at lone riflemen. The StuG platoon is activated and the Hunt commands cancelled and move commands issued instead that will get them to good firing positions.

The Soviet HMG hammers away and finally enough smoke stops his LOS to most units. The German advancing platoon (A platoon) comes under LMG and rifle fire from another position. Only one squad makes it without pinning. The stricken platoons HQ (B platoon, the one that broke initially) is coming around and the Defend platoon (C platoon)takes all enemy firers under suppression.

The Bn HQ is activated first and a 1 minute delay is still on the incoming artillery rounds. The mortar HT is moved forward so that it can fire HE now that its out of smoke.

The stricken platoon (B platoon) has rallied and the HQ activated. Its platoon menu drops down and a SOP of attack is given. The platoon goes into Defend instead and there will be a 1 turn delay before Attack! takes effect. If the platoon HQ had a better rating, it may have taken effect immediately. In any case, those squads that can see enemy units are given target commands.

The other platoon in Defend (C platoon) is SOP changed to Attack! and it takes place immediately. This is because it is being led by the company HQ and has a radio and has a LOS to the Bn HQ. Its units are given advance orders mostly.

The forward most platoon (A platoon) is put in Defend mode (have to wait for arty before this plan goes anywhere). This takes place immediately because it has LOS to company HQ, Bn HQ and a radio). Its units target those enemy it can see, and those that are already sneaking to better positions do so. The A platoon HQ again gets an advance 'bonus' in its own menu and this helps him get to a better firing position. Next turn should get him close enough to the isolated mechanics so that he may get them into the game (they are all Hiding, under a defend SOP and not drawing attention to themselves).

[ October 31, 2004, 09:31 AM: Message edited by: Mr. Tittles ]

[Mr. Tittles]

Dynamic Flag Unfolds!

A Flag in the center of the farm, which the Soviet has seen all the time, is now visable to the German player. The German player now realizes that events are changing. The German hold on the town is crumbling and his troops will never make it there. Even if he gets troops off the board, he will lose. He must alter his plan immediately. Unfortunately, the dynamic flag popped at the end of his turn. He can, under optional Dynamic Flag rules, reactivate his own platoon and reissue orders.

He reactivates his own platoon and drops his platoon menu. His menu has the option, 'attach unit'. He selects this and chooses one of the StuGs (the one that was firing smoke) to be an element of his 'platoon'. He has commandeered him. He then drops the platoon menu again and selects 'Change waypoints'. He cancels the initial waypoints and plots a new one around the right hand side of the map. He plans to out flank this farm and attack it on two sides. He leaves SOP as contact and then sends both the mortar HT, his own HT and the newly aquired Stug around the right hand side. even with his command rating, this gets a substantial delay but not more than a minute. The arty should be dropping by then. He must get the PG platoons on board with the change in events next turn and he might have to take over a platoon over there also.

The game turn length indicator has a question mark next to the 10 turn length. This may mean he has more time...the fortunes of war are fickle.

[ October 31, 2004, 09:32 AM: Message edited by: Mr. Tittles ]

[Mr. Tittles]

The Soviet now has the headaches. His HMG is jammed and smoke is blocking it and the ATG anyway. He has not seen an enemy vehicle but there are plenty of sound contacts. The enmy is advancing up the road but slowly. They have superior firepower than his paltry squads.

The reserve platoon has just fired a flare as they are advancing to the designated positions to stop any German breakthrough. The promised recon platoon has arrived! They and the reserve platoon are bunched up together near the map edge. Niether has a radio and they have poor LOS to the Bn HQ. The recon platoon had orders to make contact with the farm area forces and running into the reserve platoon has satisfied that. They are in Defend SOP now.

The Soviet commander has no way to get these units to respond to his commands (he could 'order' them {through a runner} but the delay would be too long for this short scenario..normally it would be about 5-6 turns but artillery is starting to drop and that makes a runner quite a wildcard). He must go over there and personally take charge and get them all to come back to the farm. The Flag, which he had always seen as a small flag, has suddenly changed to a large flag. He must hold the flag at all costs. It is vital for the forces that will be breaking through. He will be shot if higher HQ finds out he committed his reserve so hastily.

[ October 31, 2004, 10:07 AM: Message edited by: Mr. Tittles ]

[Mr. Tittles]

The next turn is basically a firefight and the smoke is starting to clear. The major event is that the two StuGs roll forward and the Soviet ATG nails one in the side. The crew bails and the other StuG is hit and it decides to pop smoke and reverse back out of LOS. The StuG that was hit was the platoon HQ vehicle. The StuG 'platoon' is now under withdrawl SOP. This does not effect the StuG that was commandeered by the Bn HQ. The 'platoon' (actually one vehicle) consists of a Good order StuG that has a reverse string movement. Since he is in good order, the reverse string movement can be edited and dragged to a better location.

The Arty starts to drop but the FO notices the mass of Soviet forces at the map edge. He can see what looks like a company in the open (he has scissorscopes).

Should he move the barrage onto them? Will the Soviet Commander really risk leaving his position to gather forces to hold the farm? Will CMAK ever get its final patch? These and other tittilating questions may never get resolved...

[ October 31, 2004, 10:21 AM: Message edited by: Mr. Tittles ]

[hoolaman]

Originally posted by aka_tom_w:

this part is of specific interest to me:

"How you distinguish between the player sending his Sherman after the halftrack and sending his Sherman to the same location because that’s where he wants it regardless of the halftrack is beyond me."

can someone tell me the answer to that??

what if you wanted your units to go in the direction of the enemy units IRRESPECTIVE of whether or not you as the player/commander know (OR COULD know OR COULD NOT know) of the presense of the enemy units in that location? Why should there be a penalty (command dely or otherwise) JUST because you wanted to send some units ALL the way across the map on a whim or a hunch????

that is a HUGE issue IMHO

your comments???

-tom w

As I explained before, this can be done. It would certainly work on a small scale, but games with many enemy contacts in a simgle turn would be tricky. I have tried to explain that being able to change HQ level orders is dependant on spotting enemy units.

In game terms, My comand-zone idea has three types of movement.

1- Orders from a HQ. These orders change the command zone. This is an area waypoint, 50-150m in width. To order a squad to advance through the woods using this type of movement the sequence would run as follows:

Click on platoon HQ. Select "assign orders". Plot a path for the squad to follow through the woods, taking in any good area of cover. On the map this appears as a 50m wide corridor.

2- Tactical manouvres of the squad. After the HQ has plotted its orders to the squad, the player can move the squad anywhere within this area, eg from house to house or short dashes to get into a better tactical position.

3- Initiative orders. If the squad spots an enemy, it may be possible for the player to replot the HQ ordered command zone for that squad only.

So you may see, using these types of orders, in the example above, the player comes up with a plan. This plan is: send the single squad ahead to scout the area beyond the woods. Leave the Sherman and the rest of the platoon in the village.

Then the player plots the general path he wants the squad to take. He clicks on the HQ and plots a command area waypoint that takes in a few buildings and the thickest woods. The squad then advances through this area up to the far edge of the woods. It can move anywhere in this area with no command delay.

Until the squad spots an enemy unit, the player cannot move the Sherman or the HQ back in the town except for a 50m radius to take into account tactical manouvres. If the player had originally conceived the plan to involve the sherman moving forward, he could have done so at the start.

When the squad spots the enemy halftrack, it appears on the map and is identified exactly as it is now . There is then a delay proportional to the level of communications between the squad and HQ before the Sherman can be ordered to do anything. Once the HQ has been "told" of the halftrack, the player can plot orders for the Sherman.

The key here is that the command delay and the ability to even change orders at HQ level is dependant on spotting , and no plan can or would be altered unless enemy units are sighted. If you wanted to send your units across the map on a whim or a hunch, that would have to be planned in the initial planning phase. The command zone concept means that a squad or tank can still move on any turn with no delay, but only in the immediate area it has been ordered to be in by a HQ.

So to reroute all your forces requires the HQ to be notified of enemy contact.

[aka_tom_w]

"The command zone concept means that a squad or tank can still move on any turn with no delay, but only in the immediate area it has been ordered to be in by a HQ.

So to reroute all your forces requires the HQ to be notified of enemy contact."

And in this suggestion if the HQ gets knocked out you cannot reroute or issue any other orders to its subbordinate units?

is that correct?

-tom w

[Mr. Tittles]

I edited the example for clarity (hopefully). Basically the German platoons are:

A platoon, has best progress and initiative example

B platoon, Broken HQ example, Delay of SOP change example

C platoon, Company HQ example, Responsive SOP change example

Please go back to page 6 and review the example.

[ October 31, 2004, 09:47 AM: Message edited by: Mr. Tittles ]

[hoolaman]

Originally posted by aka_tom_w:

"The command zone concept means that a squad or tank can still move on any turn with no delay, but only in the immediate area it has been ordered to be in by a HQ.

So to reroute all your forces requires the HQ to be notified of enemy contact."

And in this suggestion if the HQ gets knocked out you cannot reroute or issue any other orders to its subbordinate units?

is that correct?

-tom w

It would be correct under the current game, but a realistic C&C requires 2IC and 3IC commanders. If a HQ is killed a squad is designated HQ (after a delay where confusion may reign) etc. or the next junior HQ is "promoted".

Also, the HQ is only require to reroute all your forces.

I think to simulate the initiative of squads or platoons, the player should be able to replot the orders for only the squad that spots the halftrack to simulate the NCO coming up with a new plan as the situation dictates.

At the same time, the player cannot use the HQ to change the path of all units. He can only change the path of that one squad.

So to make a coordinated change of plans, you need to use the HQ. Squads can still react independantly to threats, but the player cannot change them all at once, but only in a reactive way.

The only thing this should limit a player from doing is reacting with total coordination to a localized threat. When the threat is reported up the chain of command, then the player can react with total coordination.

[hoolaman]

Mr. Tittles.

So basically, the disposition of your units automatically changes based on some AI variables. This in turn limits the orders you can give to a unit.

I have a few questions about this.

Why can a unit defending not make advance or fast movement orders. Counterattack and initiative and even running away are all just as vital tools on the defense as on the offense.

If a platoon can change its "SOP" at will, what value does this give higher commanders? If it cannot change its SOP at will, why not? Wouldn't a platoon or squad have enough intelligence to work this out for itself.

Does this mean units like a lone squad out of C&C are useless?

Isn't it a little arbitrary to prevent one unit advancing but allowing another to do so?

As I said, I like the idea of sometimes limiting the orders in the menu, and also of higher command level orders and dispositions, but I still don't see how this simulates real C&C.

[Mr. Tittles]

A platoon can attempt to change its SOP once activated. But it is not guaranteed to take effect immediately, even be persmissible (HQ is broken, etc) and having higher HQ in LOS, radio contact DOES effect the outcome. Maybe you should reread the example.

I think you are struggling with the need to improve the game and the desire to have a game that shows 'real' C&C.

Infantry platoons are not independant entities and some of the discussion here assumes that everyone on the battlefield is some freewheeling Rambo. It just isnt so. In the US ETO, Companies were usually the smallest org that would go into battle. Anything smaller is usually just a patrol. Platoons acting in concert with other platoons would not just dash off and leave the others behind. They need each other for mutual survival. I tried to show that in the example where one platoon was covering the other. It has nothing to do with intelligence. Its the way things are done. If one platoon is supposed to cover another but decides rather that initiative means he should expose his platoon instead and leave the other platoon hanging in the breeze, then that platoon commander would get his ass kicked. Things are done by drills. I am using the abstraction of SOPs to simulate those drills.

These things I am proposing are abstractions. Things like 'battlefield initiative' are the exception rather than the rule. Even a Platoon in Defend SOP could get an assault order. I went out of my way to show how that is being randomly generated in the example. If everyone is free to show this initiative, then it will be abused. Just like so many other elements of the game.

Good abstractions are ones that produce battlefield feel and realistic consequences. Whats being abstracted here is multiple layers of command and reaction to enemy actions.

[ October 31, 2004, 05:27 PM: Message edited by: Mr. Tittles ]

[Mr. Tittles]

Lets say there is a platoon in a trench position and its in Defend SOP. The platoon is activated and the Platoon HQ could attempt to either change to Attack or Movement SOP. It may feel that it is going to be over run. In one case, it feels the enemy can be beaten back. It may elect to try to go to Attack! In another case, its going to be overwhelmed. It may elect to try to get a movement order.

In either case it would lose its morale bonus for being in Defend. Units can not stay in Attack indefinetely. They can stay in Defend for the whole scenario.

[ October 31, 2004, 06:02 PM: Message edited by: Mr. Tittles ]

[aka_tom_w]

"The only thing this should limit a player from doing is reacting with total coordination to a localized threat. When the threat is reported up the chain of command, then the player can react with total coordination.

"

I like this idea alot

in fact I think it has been discussed here in the last BIG thread I refered to

for me the trick is how to effectively and "correctly" model

"When the threat is reported up the chain of command, then the player can react with total coordination."

how to the developers do that (exactly) in the game....

modeling the relaying info about a threat up the chain of command (so it coudl or would impact how the PLAYER could issue NEW orders to other units presumably) in the game as some form of abstraction or command delay could be VERY hard to do.... (it might also be extremely unpopular amongst most players but that is a whole other issue!)

interesting concept though!

thanks

-tom w

[Mr. Tittles]

In regards to Hoolamans idea..

What about a spread out advance up a wooded road. Several units have passed a house and nothing happens. Suddenly a LMG opens up on the next unit on the road from this house. The units up ahead, who are out of LOS now, can not react to this? They can only continue plowing along even though MG fire is in the rear? Sounds robotic.

What about reinforcements? They come on the board in the middle of a fight. Can they be directed to the fight even though there is no LOS?

I would hate to base anything on seeing enemies as spotting is in such need of repair to begin with!

[hoolaman]

Originally, my concept was a lot simpler, if people care to browse the depths of this and the "what do we want in the new CM game part deux" threads. I subsequently came up with some new ideas based on other peoples suggestions and critisicms, which may not have improved the concept.

If you have ever played a higher level war game where platoons or companies are the smallest units you have to command, you would know that each "tile" you command is an abstraction of a whole company. Of course in CM the squad is the smallest "tile".

My command zone concept is a way to play CM as a company level, platoon level and squad level game all at once. You click on battalion HQ and tell your companies where they need to go as if they were a "tile" with a zone of control. Then you click on the company HQ and tell your platoons where they need to go as a "tile". Then you click on your squads and tell them where to go within this platoon "tile" zone of control. As long as they are all confined to the last orders they recieved they are all behaving realistically.

I originally only suggested command zones or command radii around a unit. This area would be broad enough to allow initiative movement of each element based on where the orders came from. So a squad could move anywhere within the platoon ordered area, platoon could move wherever it liked in the company level area, the company could move wherever it liked within the batallion ordered area. All this does is limit the player from moving stuff unrealistically.

Originally posted by Mr. Tittles:

In regards to Hoolamans idea..

What about a spread out advance up a wooded road. Several units have passed a house and nothing happens. Suddenly a LMG opens up on the next unit on the road from this house. The units up ahead, who are out of LOS now, can not react to this? They can only continue plowing along even though MG fire is in the rear? Sounds robotic.

What about reinforcements? They come on the board in the middle of a fight. Can they be directed to the fight even though there is no LOS?

I would hate to base anything on seeing enemies as spotting is in such need of repair to begin with!

Why should the units not continue marching forward as they were orderd to do if they do not hear or see the MG open up behind them. To get the units back, the ranking HQ must know about the MG and send an order to get the units back. Nor are the units robotic, they have a 200m wide corridor they are bound to, but they can stop and dance a jig every turn if they like. If we are talking about a company in this situation, the player will have plotted paths for each platoon in accordance with whatever grand plan he came up with. Lets say each platoon is 500m apart marching in a column formation down the road. Fist platoon passes the house and gets down the road a ways. Second platoon also marches down the road a way. Third platoon is then fired on by the MG from the house that no one bothered to clear yet. Third platoon now can move a squad around the back of the house, and execute platoon level manouvres within their 200m wide zone. A little icon appears above second platoon to indicate that they got a sound contact. If you click on the HQ for second platoon, you can plot a company level waypoint back to the house. Second platoon HQ hears gunfire, he would probably go back to check it out. First platoon way up the front and out of contact with everybody, blissfully marches on.

And I might add that if you keep higher HQs close to the action, keep all units in contact with each other, and have good communictaion options, then turning the whole advance around would be realistically simple.

As for reinforcements, that is interesting. Simply stated, the player could plot an order for them as soon as they enter the map. Or the ranking HQ in the reinforcement group gets to take command.

It would be cool if, as an option, a unit in the middle of nowhere with no radio could be randomly assigned a command-zone direction by the AI to simulate being "lost". Only when they stumble on friendlies can the player take full tactical control of them!

[Mr. Tittles]

Didnt Close Combat have some whacky circular command zone?

[hoolaman]

I don't know, I never really played it. Whether it is a radius or a corridor is probably not really the point.

The point is whether it models and challenges the player to use realistic C&C while still being fun.

[Mr. Tittles]

Of course in CM the squad is the smallest "tile".

There are LMGs, Bazookas, truck crewmen, riflemen (sharpshooters). All of these are not squads.

[Mr. Tittles]

The funky thing about CloseCombat was that the C&C radius would penetrate woods the same as open areas. It did have a superior psych model for the troops and ordering them to do a little dance was not advisable. They would react in very realistic ways.

Having a 'Corridor' 200m wide would not work in Bocage or built up terrain. Any C&C governing units without radios (most squads did not have radios), needs to understand this.

[Mr. Tittles]

I would also like SOP to have other effects. An example is the morale boost Defend gives a platoon. This gives a nod to the fact that they are 'safer' and not being asked to hang thier rumps out in the breeze. Also, being in Defend could simulate resupply. The more turns in Defend, the more the chance that the ammo amount goes up. An abstraction but not a bad one in a game that has no resupply.

I think that perhaps all platoon HQs should have expanded orders regardless of the SOP the platoon is under. An example is that a platoon HQ will always have Advance as an option but the length of the advance command given can be SOP dependant. So a platoon under SOP Defend could give its HQ an Advance order (trying to repel some units that have gotten into the trench) but the length is limited to 20m lets say. So the Defend unit DOES have some counterattack capability. This is in addition to random orders popping up in menus btw. So there is a chance that a squad could see an advance or even a assault 'bonus' order popping up.

The same for orders like withdrawl or run. Not initiative but sometimes the shot up squad might have this instead of a heroic Assault command.

[aka_tom_w]

from that old Thread:

aka_tom_w

Member

Member # 1515

posted April 20, 2002 11:00 AM                      

quote:

Originally posted by Ace Pilot:

Tom,

I think Caesar’s point #4 (bigger command delays for longer, more complex movement) comes the closest to addressing the problem of units moving en masse to a problem spot that, in real life, they wouldn’t be aware of. But, once again, this solution reduces (to a small extent) the amount of control players have over their units. And it still can’t distinguish between (1) a unit being ordered to set up a position in that farm house half a mile away and, (2) a unit being ordered to set up a position in that farm house half a mile away BECAUSE there’s an enemy unit that’s just been spotted in the woods across from the farm house. In my mind, the extended command delay is there to prevent a near instantaneous response from units that are far away from the action. But it also means that any long distance movement will be generously delayed, whether or not it is being made in response to the spotting of enemy units.

But I will say this is a better and more eloquent solution than most.

Ace

Thanks

OK

I see two places where there could be MORE delay.

I would prefer to focus on the way the game (and your friendly units) transmits info and recon intel BACK to the player. If the Delays were long and the ability to get reliable intel from your units on the map (especially those OUT of C&C) was substantially degraded by increased FOW (and maybe the player has to see opposing units only from view one, but I highly doubt that will be a very popular proposal) THEN there would not have be the additional command delay to order units to move across the map.

Two things should be considered here

recon intel Moves UP the chain of command to the player

(how this happens and how it is modeled and abstracted should be considered and re-considered in the new game they are developing)

and...

unit and movement, attack/defend orders move DOWN the chain of command from the Player

I do not believe we should compromise the ability of the player (by added command delays for units IN C&C to encourage wise use of HQ units) to issue orders to units in a severely punitive way, by excessive command delays. (its good enough now, PLAY Green troops and try to make them do ANYTHING when they are out of C&C and see how far you get?)

NO..

I would rather focus the effort on how the info goes more slowly up the chain of command to the Player. This means increasing FOW and decreasing what the player can know with any certianty about the opposing units strength or composition. It also seems to mean trusting the Tac AI a little more I think.

-tom w (OLD post from 2.5 yrs ago pre CMBB and Pre CMAK)

[hoolaman]

I don't want to see anything that limits the ability of the player to see, in real time, exactly what his squads see.

The best way I can think of to do this is to confine the squads to the localised area they are fighting in, unless a higher order comes to change position.

Limiting what the player sees also implies that the player takes on some level of rank. Do you limit his view to company level or batallion level? I think a larger command delay at the higher HQ levels is most appropriate.

Even green troops, if they decide to run to a house to take cover, will run there instantly. The distinction between orders from the player that simulate the "will" of a higher level HQ and orders from the player that simulates the "will" of the squad is the hard thing to distinguish. If the player is to have control over squads on the front lines at all, he must be able to see what the squad sees as they see it.

Even if all you do is to put more command delay on orders from a HQ. While still allowing the player to order unrealistic borg movement, you have slightly improved the situation by limiting borg advances to orders from an officer. The command delay would be dependant on communications more so than experience. So you do simulate info coming UP then DOWN the chain of command with a simple command delay on higher level HQ orders.

Maybe it would work simply making the command delay proportional to the distance a HQ is from any enemy plus the distance they are from the element they are trying to command. This way if the HQ is far from any enemy, commanding the units close to the front would take longer, and if the HQ were close to the enemy, commanding units far from it would take longer, but if the HQ was both close to an enemy, and close to a unit, command would be quick. This is not based on spotting, but proximity to the action vs proximity to the unit.

Just another idea.......

[Mr. Tittles]

I don't want to see anything that limits the ability of the player to see, in real time, exactly what his squads see.

Then what you are seeing right now is too much! No 'squad' could process as much info as is presented in the game under battle conditions. The total effect of Borg Spotting guarantees that.

IRL, many vets say they never saw many Germans when the Germans were defending. They saw muzzle flashes mostly. If the game presented you with what really happens IRL, you would hate the game even more.

Maybe you should play Close Combat. You can probably pick up a game on the cheap.