Kingfish Posted March 10, 2006 Share Posted March 10, 2006 Am having trouble figuring out the number and types of AT guns issued to the British 6th Airborne division during June '44. First we have Bayonet strength, which lists the standard TO&E of various nation's armed forces during ww2. A check of the British airborne division shows they were equipped with "two Anti-tank Batteries" as part of the division's combat support elements. Delving further into the site shows the British parachute battalion as having only PIATS in their AT platoons, which makes sense. The Airlanding battalion, however, lists 8x 6-pdr guns in two platoons. Sometime in 1944 these two platoons were combined into an AT group, but still retaining the same number of AT guns. Since there was 3 airlanding battalions in 6th Abn, this means 24x 6-pdr guns. So my first question is, did the 6th Abn have the 24 guns from the 6th Airlanding brigade in addition to the two AT batteries listed in the division's combat support, or am I mixing up the two elements somehow? Also, did the 6th Abn div have 17 pdrs in support during the first half of June '44? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andreas Posted March 10, 2006 Share Posted March 10, 2006 No idea after checking 'Go to it'. But you can give them fire support from HMS Arethusa (6") if you feel like it. All the best Andreas 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kingfish Posted March 10, 2006 Author Share Posted March 10, 2006 [scenario hint]Would love to, but HMS Arethusa is currently committed to the defense of the Breville gap, where units of the depleted 9th Para are defending against an attack by a 500-strong German assault force. Meanwhile, to the south of the Bois de Bavent, the 21st Panzer is assembling...[/scenario hint] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonS Posted March 10, 2006 Share Posted March 10, 2006 Assuming you are talking about 6th June ... 8 x 6-pr in each AL bn 8 x 6-pr plus 4 x 17-pr in 3rd Air Landing A-Tk Bty 8 x 6-pr plus 4 x 17-pr in 4th Air Landing A-Tk Bty (or, possibly 12 x 6-pr in one of the btys, and 4 -6-pr + 8 x 17-pr in the other, my notes are a little vague) The 17-pr came in on Hamilcars, the rest in Horsas. 4 of the 17-pr came in at about 0300, the rest at dawn, IIRC. Similar mis with the 6-prs. The 6-pr with the AL bns didn't come in till the MALLARD (or was it TONGA?) landings in the late evening. Have you tried the 6 Juin website? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kingfish Posted March 10, 2006 Author Share Posted March 10, 2006 Originally posted by JonS: Assuming you are talking about 6th June ...10th June, but since this will be a fictional scenario I have a bit of artistic freedom 8 x 6-pr in each AL bn 8 x 6-pr plus 4 x 17-pr in 3rd Air Landing A-Tk Bty 8 x 6-pr plus 4 x 17-pr in 4th Air Landing A-Tk Bty (or, possibly 12 x 6-pr in one of the btys, and 4 -6-pr + 8 x 17-pr in the other, my notes are a little vague) The 17-pr came in on Hamilcars, the rest in Horsas. 4 of the 17-pr came in at about 0300, the rest at dawn, IIRC. Similar mis with the 6-prs. The 6-pr with the AL bns didn't come in till the MALLARD (or was it TONGA?) landings in the late evening.Excellent. I didn't know that the 17s could have been brought in via Glider, but then again, if they could with the Tetrarch... Have you tried the 6 Juin website? Yeah, that and The 6th Airborne Division website, but why bother when I have you guys BTW, did you get my turn? My Grenadiers will have you crapping in your hand when I finally reach that Olive grove. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonS Posted March 10, 2006 Share Posted March 10, 2006 Yeah I did. Back soon-ish. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonS Posted March 10, 2006 Share Posted March 10, 2006 Oh, BTW, (and not that it matters, given your date, but anyway ...) Reading this it would seem that 4 x 17-pr flew in at 0320 on LZ N (just east of the Orne bridges), and the other four came in at 2100, also at LZ N. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John D Salt Posted March 10, 2006 Share Posted March 10, 2006 Originally posted by Andreas: No idea after checking 'Go to it'. Look on page 22. "Anti-tank artillery support for the two parachute brigades in the division was provided by 3rd and 4th Airlanding Anti-Tank Batteries RA..." "Each consisted of a battery headquarters and four troops of four guns each, being initially equipped with a total of sixteen 6-pounder anti-tank guns. In 1944, the fourth troop in each battery was re-equipped with the heavier 17-pounder gun..." So that's 12 x 6-pdr + 4 x 17-pdr for each airlanding ATk bty, plus the guns in the airlanding brigade. All the best, John. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonS Posted March 11, 2006 Share Posted March 11, 2006 John, could you please confirm from 'Go to it' that the two follow-on btys of 53rd AL Lt Regt landed over the beaches on D+7, as reported in Pemberton? Thanks Jon 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John D Salt Posted March 11, 2006 Share Posted March 11, 2006 Originally posted by JonS: John, could you please confirm from 'Go to it' that the two follow-on btys of 53rd AL Lt Regt landed over the beaches on D+7, as reported in Pemberton? "Go to it!" seems to think that 211st AL bty landed on D-Day with 6 AL Bde, and the other two batteries were to arrive "the following day". Whether they did or not is not stated completely unambiguously. As Napier Crookenden was Bde Major of 6th AL Bde, I'll take a look in his "Dropzone Normandy" when I can find where I put it down. All the best, John. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andreas Posted March 11, 2006 Share Posted March 11, 2006 P. 77. All that remained to arrive by sea on the following day were 12th Battalion The Devonshire Regiment (less one company), 53rd Airlanding Light Regiment RA (less one battery), 3rd Airlanding Anti-Tank Batttery RA (less one troop), 2nd Airlanding Light Anti-Aircraft Battery RA, 195th Airlanding Field Ambulance (less two sections) and other divisional troops.How's the sofa John? All the best Andreas 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonS Posted March 11, 2006 Share Posted March 11, 2006 Thanks guys. Jon 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Kettler Posted March 11, 2006 Share Posted March 11, 2006 Two juicy sites! How were the airlanded 17 pdrs towed? Am guessing the load would be a bit much for a jeep, or am I wrong? Regards, John Kettler 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Kettler Posted March 11, 2006 Share Posted March 11, 2006 Three juicy sites! How were the airlanded 17 pdrs towed? Am guessing the load would be a bit much for a jeep, or am I wrong? The OOB stuff is simply amazing, the pictures are wonderful (Merville Battery sure took a pasting), and we even have the complete text of a formerly Top Secret OPORD. Too bad the map can't be zoomed more! BTW, shouldn't it be "Albemarle" on the 6juin site, rather than as shown? Regards, John Kettler 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonS Posted March 11, 2006 Share Posted March 11, 2006 Jeep or breen carrier. Also, I think i was possible to get a small truck into a Hamilcar. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Kettler Posted March 11, 2006 Share Posted March 11, 2006 JonS, Thanks for the info! I wouldn't have thought a jeep had enough pulling power for such a big gun, but I'll certainly buy a UC or weapon carrier sized truck as eminently reasonable candidates. I see I had some weird posting problems in which things went through without my being aware of that fact, leading to two versions of the same post. Hmm. Regards, John Kettler 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Breakthrough Posted March 14, 2006 Share Posted March 14, 2006 George Forty ( British Army Handbook 1939-45) Has a A/B Div OOB for August 44. 17pdrs are included only in the divisional airlanding A/T Regt. The unit had three batteries of four troops each with 6 guns 6 or 17 pdrs. Other WW II OOBs for A/B and standard inf Divs list the A/T Regt having two batteries of 6pdrs and one batery of 17pdrs. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonS Posted March 14, 2006 Share Posted March 14, 2006 Org of div tps for the British AB divs seems to have evolved almost constantly through the war, and in not a few cases seems to have evolved in response to percieved requiremnts for forthcoming ops. This makes it a bit hard to stick a stake in the ground and say 'THIS is what they looked like'. On the other hand, I can't think of any time when both divs were in action at the same time, and the org of each div for particular ops - OVERLORD (6th AB), MARKET-GARDEN (1st AB), VARSITY (6th AB) - is relatively easy to find. AFAICT, in June 1944 there was no such thing as an AL A-Tk Regt, just two AL A-Tk Btys, one for each Para Bde (the AL Bde had enough A-Tk guns in the AL bn orgs). 'Later' a third AL A-Tk Bty was added, and all three came under a regt org under the CRA. Off the top, I can't remember if this change was in time for MARKET-GARDEN, but it was definately in place for VARSITY. 3 tps of 4 x 6-pr + 1 tp of 4 x 17-pr is correct for a June 1944 AL A-Tk Bty. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John D Salt Posted March 16, 2006 Share Posted March 16, 2006 Originally posted by John D Salt: </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by JonS: John, could you please confirm from 'Go to it' that the two follow-on btys of 53rd AL Lt Regt landed over the beaches on D+7, as reported in Pemberton? "Go to it!" seems to think that 211st AL bty landed on D-Day with 6 AL Bde, and the other two batteries were to arrive "the following day". Whether they did or not is not stated completely unambiguously. As Napier Crookenden was Bde Major of 6th AL Bde, I'll take a look in his "Dropzone Normandy" when I can find where I put it down. </font> 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonS Posted March 16, 2006 Share Posted March 16, 2006 Hi John, many thanks for this. Originally posted by John D Salt: it is clear that the 17-pdrs of 4th (AL) ATk Bty RA came in on LZ "N" and those of 3rd (AL) ATk Bty RA came over the beach on the 7th.So, 4th Bty (complete) landed by Glider before dawn on the 6th June, while 3rd Bty (complete) arrived over the beaches on the 7th June. Correct? That seems to contradict Andreas' quote abovce which says "3rd Bty (less one troop) arrived over the beaches on the 7th" Page 199: Says that 6-pdrs of both batteries, plus 3 17-pdrs, deployed south of Ranville and le Bas de Ranville, and "by first light were ready for any German tanks which might appear".Wait - both batterys? Thanks Jon 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John D Salt Posted March 17, 2006 Share Posted March 17, 2006 Originally posted by JonS: [snips] So, 4th Bty (complete) landed by Glider before dawn on the 6th June, while 3rd Bty (complete) arrived over the beaches on the 7th June. Correct? Errh, no (scratches head, tries not to look confused). Originally posted by JonS: </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Page 199: Says that 6-pdrs of both batteries, plus 3 17-pdrs, deployed south of Ranville and le Bas de Ranville, and "by first light were ready for any German tanks which might appear".Wait - both batterys? </font> 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonS Posted March 17, 2006 Share Posted March 17, 2006 No, that actually makes sense ... sort of. As far as I can tell: * 12 x 6-pr of 4th Bty landed by Horsa about 0300 06JUN44 * 4 x 17-pr of 3rd Bty landed by Hamilcar about 0300 06JUN44 (4 sortied, 3 landed) * 4 x 17-pr of 4th Bty landed by Hamilcar about 2000 06JUN44 (this is speculation) * 12 x 6-pr of 3rd Bty landed over SWORD 07JUN44This line up seems to fit the avialbale evidence from various books. The apparent oddity is mixing 3rd and 4th Btys landing at 0300, but then both Para Bdes landed at the same time, so it makes sense that each would bring some A-Tk guns with them. Can anyone see any issues with that landing schedule? Thanks Jon 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John D Salt Posted March 17, 2006 Share Posted March 17, 2006 Originally posted by JonS: No, that actually makes sense ... sort of. As far as I can tell: </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />* 12 x 6-pr of 4th Bty landed by Horsa about 0300 06JUN44 * 4 x 17-pr of 3rd Bty landed by Hamilcar about 0300 06JUN44 (4 sortied, 3 landed) * 4 x 17-pr of 4th Bty landed by Hamilcar about 2000 06JUN44 (this is speculation) * 12 x 6-pr of 3rd Bty landed over SWORD 07JUN44This line up seems to fit the avialbale evidence from various books. The apparent oddity is mixing 3rd and 4th Btys landing at 0300, but then both Para Bdes landed at the same time, so it makes sense that each would bring some A-Tk guns with them. Can anyone see any issues with that landing schedule? </font> 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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