Question for mine grogs

[Hans]

Ran this question at the Scenario Forum and got no answers, the question is:

...For a Vietnam scenario I have some unusually accurate information. The US has 390 US style M-14, M-16 and a few M-18 anti-personnel mines. Anyone care to guess how many CM AP mine counters that might equal?

Hans

[Dandelion]

Hans

Of course there is no real way of knowing, but some deduction might bring us to a quasi-qualified guess.

a) Whereas the M18 had no equivalent, and the M14 had only distant cousins, the M16 is almost identical to the WWII German standard S mine "bouncing Betty". Easiest then, to use the M16 for reference.

S mines were normally deployed in standardised patches of varying sizes and density. The CM minefields also use predefined patches, thus size of the field is known. It roughly equals two 14mx24m standard patches as used by the Germans.

c) With no statistical proof at hand, and no personal experiences of this type of minefield, it is my gut feeling that the degree of likelihood of passing personnel hitting a mine when passing a minefield in CM would represent a medium density field.

d) In a medium density patch 14mx24m the Germans would use 24 mines. Doubled, that makes 48 mines per CM patch.

e) Using those figures, we'd end up with some 8 or 9 CM patches of antipersonell mines in your setup.

Makes sense?

f) As for the M18, I'd personally use those... er whatchamacallitinenglish - I mean the mines that lie in the open, across a road.

Cheerio

Dandelion

[junk2drive]

Daisy Chain?

Aussie Vietnam weapons pictures shows lots of neat stuff.

[Mr. Tittles]

A daisy chain is a AT minefield. It isnt anything like a M18 Claymore mine.

There is really nothing in the game that is like a M18 claymore besides cannister. It would be better to model the claymore with indirect arty. Have a FO with only 4-5 rounds. Use registration points.

[Conscript Bagger]

This might help.

Interesting that the standard dimensions of a "block" of German mines was about 26 x 35 yards, or two CM minefields abreast.

[Hans]

Originally posted by Dandelion:

Hans

Of course there is no real way of knowing, but some deduction might bring us to a quasi-qualified guess.

a) Whereas the M18 had no equivalent, and the M14 had only distant cousins, the M16 is almost identical to the WWII German standard S mine "bouncing Betty". Easiest then, to use the M16 for reference.

S mines were normally deployed in standardised patches of varying sizes and density. The CM minefields also use predefined patches, thus size of the field is known. It roughly equals two 14mx24m standard patches as used by the Germans.

c) With no statistical proof at hand, and no personal experiences of this type of minefield, it is my gut feeling that the degree of likelihood of passing personnel hitting a mine when passing a minefield in CM would represent a medium density field.

d) In a medium density patch 14mx24m the Germans would use 24 mines. Doubled, that makes 48 mines per CM patch.

e) Using those figures, we'd end up with some 8 or 9 CM patches of antipersonell mines in your setup.

Makes sense?

f) As for the M18, I'd personally use those... er whatchamacallitinenglish - I mean the mines that lie in the open, across a road.

Cheerio

Dandelion

Thanks for the info Dandelion, I'll go with that - I would have thought we'd have a Brit/Canuk or US Combat Engineer around here somewhere!

[Nidan1]

Hans,

I was a combat engineer in Vietnam, but we never used mines in the "traditional" sense of prepared defensive areas, or as a means of channeling enemy movement.

Due to the nature of the tactics, American infantry units were usually on the move, landing in remote areas and sweeping the country side, trying to flush out the enemy.

Claymore mines were used extensively with trip wires or command detonation, as a means of springing ambushes or for the perimeter security of company sized formations. Base camp areas were usually not mined.

Not knowing your intention, in a CM based scenario, I cannot give you any more detailed information, but might I suggest that one AP mine counter per platoon might be accurate, if you are recreating a defensive position for American forces.

[Michael Emrys]

Originally posted by Nidan1:

Base camp areas were usually not mined.

Now that's interesting. Why was that?

Michael

[Nidan1]

To give you an example...when the Third Marine Division moved its area of operations from Da Nang to Dong Ha, we had to establish initial defensive positions and a base perimeter.

There was already some kind of Air Force establishment in the area, as well as an airfield, and we just built our perimeter around theirs. You have to understand that most of the land around the camp was rice paddy, we could not indiscriminately mine that area, without harming the locals.

We arrived their in late October, and started putting up concertina wire around the Marine positions. We put up combinations of concertina and tanglefoot, placed trip flares, but no mines.

When the rainy season arrived most of our perimeter was under water anyway, so mines were essentially useless.

In the time I spent there, the only mines we ever used were claymores, and they were set up nightly and removed.

An interesting personal anecdote, if you care to hear it.....one time I was attached to an ambush group, we would set up in likely areas of enemy movement at dusk in the hope of springing something on NVA moving in the area. Well, on this particular night, I set up a daisy chain of C-rations cans filled with C-4 and attached to a trip wire, which would initiate the ambush if some unlucky bastard stumbled through the area. I placed about 6 or eight cans in a rough semi circle in an area of likely infiltration, and we pulled back about 30 meters to wait.

The night was pitch dark and mostly quiet. I guess I thought I was awake all night, and so did the other guys. When I went out the next morning to retrieve the stuff, it was all gone!!! Scary.

[junk2drive]

Yes I did care to hear the story, and thanks for your service.

[Hans]

Originally posted by Nidan1:

Hans,

I was a combat engineer in Vietnam, but we never used mines in the "traditional" sense of prepared defensive areas, or as a means of channeling enemy movement.

Due to the nature of the tactics, American infantry units were usually on the move, landing in remote areas and sweeping the country side, trying to flush out the enemy.

Claymore mines were used extensively with trip wires or command detonation, as a means of springing ambushes or for the perimeter security of company sized formations. Base camp areas were usually not mined.

Not knowing your intention, in a CM based scenario, I cannot give you any more detailed information, but might I suggest that one AP mine counter per platoon might be accurate, if you are recreating a defensive position for American forces. [/quoteI

Its for a base camp defense and the number of mines comes from the after action report.

[Nidan1]

Was it an Army or Marine Base Camp?

A fire base or larger?

I would use a minimum of AP mine counters, but barbed wire would be a must, if its a fire base.

An artillery fire base would have wire, and probably only claymores and trip flares. All gun emplacements would be sandbagged, but again the temporary nature of these bases would preclude "traditional minefields" in the WWII sense.

As much vegetation as possible would be removed around the base as well.

A more permanent base camp, might have more mines, but just beause they are listed in an AAR does not mean they were all sown. SF bases might have more mined areas, a place like Dak To for example, but to be honest IMO its more hit and miss rather than a rule when mines are concerned.

[ November 09, 2004, 07:41 AM: Message edited by: Nidan1 ]

[Hans]

A quote from AAR on the base I'm building in CM

"and a triple strand of concertina wire fifty meters wide laced with Claymore mines."

Oh were you ever near Route 9 near Khe Sanh, what type of road was that, hardball, gravel or dirt?

[Nidan1]

Originally posted by Hans:

A quote from AAR on the base I'm building in CM

"and a triple strand of concertina wire fifty meters wide laced with Claymore mines."

Oh were you ever near Route 9 near Khe Sanh, what type of road was that, hardball, gravel or dirt?

That quote says a lot...claymores and more claymores, they were very typical as I said.

I guess CM AP mine counters could simulate that, but you have to take into consideration that the claymore had a horizontal arc kill radius, rather than a typical step on blast or the bouncing type.

I was in that area in 1966-67, Highway one from Dong Ha to Cam Lo where Highway 9 came in from the west was hardpack dirt and some black top. Highway 9 was mostly dirt if I remember correctly with lots of culverts for drainage.

[Michael Emrys]

Originally posted by Nidan1:

You have to understand that most of the land around the camp was rice paddy, we could not indiscriminately mine that area, without harming the locals.

We arrived their in late October, and started putting up concertina wire around the Marine positions. We put up combinations of concertina and tanglefoot, placed trip flares, but no mines.

When the rainy season arrived most of our perimeter was under water anyway, so mines were essentially useless.

Okay, got it. Thanks.

Michael