Scouting in a city

[SpitfireXI]

I find the worst part of fighting in a city is never knowing where the enemy is. How do you best move from building to building without getting whacked? It seems that every building I come into contact with could have enemy infantry inside, so do I just assault every building? I understand city fighting once I can figure out where the enemy is but by then all of my infantry is wasted it seems.

[John_d]

Ah ha, this is the only bit of CM that I really excel in!

Try recon through fire. Pound a few likely looking buildings for a bit. This should hopefully persuade their occupants to leave, thus saving you the trouble of storming them with infantry. It is pretty much essential in urban combat to keep a few big guns behind to use as support.

There's also recon throught death. Take a half squad and run about until it gets mown down.

To be honest though, there are two keys to cracking urban combat- think like your enemy and advance in short, powerful bursts. Recon rarely plays a big role in my urban battles b/c LOS is so limited. As you have noticed, half hearted scouting attempts in urban areas tend not to work. Instead I find it easier to plan and move in such a way that recon is unnecessary.

Firstly, you should be able to roughly identify likely enemy positions. Once done, blow them down or, preferably since it leaves no rubble, set them on fire. You can use the dust and confusion from a collapsed building to cover your advance too. Just make sure that once you have done this, you advance immediately or the enemy will take up position in the rubble and be even harder to root out. Spotting is hard in such situations, so the more you can work out before the battle starts, the less work you have to do later. Once the attack starts in earnest, use your guns to do the killing where possible. Send the infantry in first til they find something to kill, then roll up the street and blast them with a tank or something. the ISU-152 is perfect for this kind of thing.

Secondly, try to move your troops in groups of a platoon minimum for no more than about 50m at a time. Move quickly (I usually use run most of the time) using the 'shadows' of surounding buildings in very short bursts. Speed and concentration is th key here. If you attack every building, no matter how small, with an infantry platoon with MG overwatch, there is little that can stand in its way. A sensible defender will generally not concentrate his troops too much in urban situations, simply b/c they will all be lost if the building collapses. Use this low troop concentration aginst him. If things start to get hairy or you suspect that there will be enemy troops in a building that you are about to enter, use the assault command. Or alternatively, send a half squad in first (I often use half squads to make sure that streets are safe to cross too). Once an urban attack is underway, I will tend to attack through depth- the first squad enters the building, makes contact and get pinned; the rest of the platoon arrives whilst the enemy unit is suppressing the first squad and mop up. Scale this up to a company sized assault and it will cut through most urban defensive lines. Remember to cover your flanks and circulate your leading squads to spread losses across the whole platoon/company.

Also, take advantage of the limited LOS and flank where necessary

Oh, and if in doubt, hit them with high caliber artillery fire. That will shake them up a bit and hopefully make them give their positions away

Using this technique, you should be able to move around urban areas without doing recon first.

[JasonC]

I have a somewhat different answer.

No I don't scout every building. Only the ones I know I want, occasionally those nearest them or looking up a street leading to them.

The main point is packet movement. That means most guys are stationary in cover ready to fire, when one moves out. Once a building is seen to be unoccupied, everybody and his brother can come over. Yes I get half squads killed finding the enemy. You can afford that if and only if you kill the guys that did it, in response.

I stagger moves across the streets. No bunching. If one is going to cross in 19 seconds, another can be ready to go in 39, if the far side has been checked. I plan platoon moves a turn ahead to count down the time delays. If new info changes the situation I can always cancel the moves. I am not in a hurry. I just want most men in cover at the moment of contact. Firefights with equal cover are decided by numbers. My numbers minus the guy trying to cross bigger than the enemy that can fit there equals I win - that is the calculation.

As for HE prep, it is a matter of ammo and time available and overall city size. I like urban remodeling as much as the next guy, and if my overall HE supply will level the whole place, well enough, level the whole place. But usually it won't. So I level only places where I've found enemy, and a few so obvious I suspect enemy will be there. I'm trying to hit men though, not clear ground.

When you have strong overwatch, thin enemies die in a minute flat at city ranges, even in cover. It takes full platoons to stop you. If you aren't seeing any of your men in the building pin or panic, just the guys in the streets, it is light stuff. Keep pressing, pausing a minute per shooter, no more. Once you see your men in heavy buildings pinning or panicking, you've found the real position. Stop, fire, bring up HE and special weapons, etc.

I will sometimes send patrols to parts of the map where I do not expect enemy. These can be anything from an ATR or LMG just used as a pair of eyes, to a platoon HQ with 2 squads, one of them split and scouting, the other with the HQ and ready to fire from cover.

The larger patrols aren't meant to fight anything beyond an LMG or single half squad. But they can check places, and if they find it empty, keep it. My real forces might want it later, and they might catch enemy moving through streets without expecting anyone in that area.

These aren't looking for enemy. They aren't trying to go places enemies are likely to be, but instead places I doubt will be held. They do not keep going until they hit something - that just gets them killed. When they've found a nice spot in terms of cover and view, they will hide for a minute, sneak a little, hide again, and then go up on short arcs or arcs exclusively into streets. And sit there.

My real forces on the other hand are preceded by a half squad on move to contact inside, and advance between, buildings. They are thin front, deep, typically two full platoons behind a single half squad, minimum. One in "second line" behind the other, meant to be out of LOS if there is contact. The other "first line", meant to be in LOS if there is contact. The first line fires and the second maneuvers.

I only wind up picking a route per company as a result. I want to hit only a few of the enemy's traps, not all of them. If his other guys want to hide forever and let me beat up a few of his at a time, fine by me. If they open up instead at some point, I did not have to find them all with half squads.

[SpitfireXI]

Say you need to advance down a long street with heavy buildings on both sides. Now I can use my tanks to fire down the street to supress any machine guns but as my infantry have to go on the street to go to the next building how do ensure they do not get killed everytime they enter the next door heavy building?

[John_d]

I reckon by using huge troop concentrations coupled with knocking down any buildings that look like trouble. Also hose down a few buildings with MG fire or something and see if anyone gives their position away. Then knock the building down.

But I'm sure Jason will disagree I think our tactics on this matter sit at either end of the subtlety spectrum. And also, I reckon that Jason's tactics probably work better in large towns or cities, whereas I've mostly developed my tactics assaulting villages and small towns.

[SpitfireXI]

So I guess that simply going down a city block takes about 20 minutes in an urban environment?

[John_d]

Pretty much, yeah

[JasonC]

Yes you are right, I disagree. I don't think massive troop concentrations work particularly well. Especially if the enemy has any form of HE. I don't think hosing down a building with an MG will do much of anything. Keep one already pinned enemy from rallying, that an MG can do to men in a heavy building. But they aren't going to break anybody on their own. As for knocking the building down, that I agree with, when you have the weapons and know anybody is there.

But Spitfire IX asks a specific question that calls for a different answer. He is really talking about rowhouse tactics. And even more specifically, a "back" defense on "reverse slope" principles that uses rowhouses as its "crestline".

Reverse slope tactics are all about isolating the leading attackers from their supporting overwatch. When a literal slope is used, the guys over the crestline are in LOS of the defense, while their friends on the far side might as well be on the moon. Because you can't shoot through a hill. The defender then gets a many on few on the most vulnerable attacking unit, and does not expose himself to equal or greater loss in reply.

This is just a good tactic, all times.

The rowhouse version uses the fact that you can't see through the solid interior wall. A unit far back in the next rowhouse also generally won't be seen from across the street (though one too far forward can be). When the first packet mover steps into the new house, he has crossed a notional "crest", and faces the enemy isolated.

Losing even a half squad to find out a building is occupied, if you can't then make the defender's pay equally, will indeed run you out of infantry before you get to the end of a long street. It won't run the defender out, if the attack pays a half squad a building and the defender pays a minute of squad ammo only.

So he is right, you can't play that game. Just having a platoon in heavy buildings ready to fire, works when they are across the street from the new building being entered and have LOS to the positions that will blow up their scouts. But if they can't see those positions, it does not suffice.

The first solution is to advance down both sides of the street, not just one. With the guys in building X1 overwatching the move into Y2, then the guys in Y2 overwatching the moves into X2 and X3, etc. If the defenders aren't so deep in the houses they can't be seen even from across the street, that alone will restore the necessary relationship, "if he kills my scout he dies as well".

A second solution is to notice the buildings as well as the street have 2 sides. He can't be deep inside from the buildings opposite the one you are trying to enter, from two different directions, extending through nearly 180 degrees. If he is deep to one, he is shallow to the other. Dead center, either can see that far in, if at the windows of their own buildings.

A third solution is to remember the general rule for reverse slopes, that the best way to carry them is a turning movement. Cross the line extending through his crest position, well away from its main defending strength. Advance beyond the LOS blockage. Then reorient on the original position and approach it from a side or side-rear. Suppose infantry is hiding in X3. Then if I go two streets to the left to V1, V2, V3 or V4, then turn and go to W3 or W4, now I'm coming at the guy from a side that isn't blocked by an impassible interior wall (his "crest").

Historically there was another option - mouseholing, cutting a route straight through the interior wall. Not in CMx1, maybe in CMx2. A version that does work is rubbling - there are no interior walls blocking movement between adjacent piles of rubble.

It might be objected, a turning movement is all well and good but he will have other positions on the other blocks. No doubt. But are all of them reverse slope positions behind impassible interior walls? Take apart the ones that are not, first. Or make a single gap in a line of them with HE, rubbling one link in the chain (much easier to swing than rubbling them all).

There is another tactic important to understand in urban fighting, against opponents who shelter from cover fire by using "back" deployments, so deep they can barely see the last 4m of pavement but nothing farther. You have to notice that positions forced to such "back" deployments are blind. They can't see you coming. And they can't stop men from standing right out in the open street. If you first drive them in with overwatch firepower, all along the street, you can then maneuver in the street itself with relative impunity.

And you can then use a variety of special weapons and tactics, exploiting the enemy's blindness down to nearly point-blank range. You can bring up a flamethrower and area fire into the building while still shy of his LOS, for instance. Standing right in the street. You can put pioneers there and toss DCs into the building, area fire-use explosives. Germans can do the same from every ordinary squad, using their grenade bundles. After the "flash-bang", entry - a full squad on "assault" heading only for the front edge of the building, halting the instant it is inside, to fire.

It requires fine nerves to fight this way. You have to be inside the other guy's head, and guess correctly whether he will be in up or back deployments. Assume "up" at first, until you find otherwise. When you find he is back, though, you have to be willing to bet units on it, and aggressively make him pay for his limited ability to see and influence the open street itself.

This is something you do with risk forces, as few as needed to do the job. Your main body belongs inside cover, overwatching. But risk some units (an FT, a squad) to KO the deep, back deployed guys.

Finally, you can sometimes bypass a unit or larger group holding you up this way, vertically. Through the sewer, *under* that supposedly "impassible" interior wall.

I hope this helps.

[Tagwyn]

Thanks Jason!! Merry Christmas man. Tag

[SpitfireXI]

Great post! But could you clarify this statment a little more: "A second solution is to notice the buildings as well as the street have 2 sides. He can't be deep inside from the buildings opposite the one you are trying to enter, from two different directions, extending through nearly 180 degrees. If he is deep to one, he is shallow to the other. Dead center, either can see that far in, if at the windows of their own buildings."

Thanks!

[JasonC]

Up a long street of rowhouses, that is the expected task, right? So I picture x1, x2, x3 etc as consecutive rowhouses (or large buildings, no interior connection without entering the street) up the left side of street Main. y1, y2, y3 are up the right side of street main.

But there is also street LeftofMain, or whatever else is over there. There is a left side of x1, x2, etc.

When you put a squad deep in a large building, deep enough to cut LOS from y2 across Main street, you are beyond the mid-point of the building, right to left. In the left half, farthest from Main street. But the left half is closer to LeftofMain, not farther.

In other words, in the typical rowhouse situation, there is some direction his location in the house isn't a "back" deployment toward. There is some direction that looks into the house, from the side his unit is closer to.

So, swing out left, and come at him up two streets rather than up one street. Same idea of cover fire from across the street, but from either of two of them.

-------x3---y3---

---*---x2---y2---

---*---x1-m-y1---

If he is in x2, you can get cover fire from y1 or y2 if he can see into the street marked "m". But if he is so far left into x2 that guys in y2 can't see him, then he is far enough left that guys in either of the * locations *can* see him.

Factories are thick enough that you can be deep in them toward both streets. But factories do not have blocking interior walls.

Back to back standard heavy buildings can sometimes make a block where the above approach won't work. In those cases, though, the same interior walls prevent the enemy from helping each other. You have to pick those apart one at a time - or you can rubble one to reduce it to the above problem.

[jBrereton]

It might sound stupid, but I routinely use THTs in Scout cars for this kind of thing. Fine, they're both very, very fragile units, but when you use two or three of them together then they can harrass enemy forces and sometimes take a couple of enemies with them before they die, as well as being quite speedy.

That said, I rarely play 1500< , as whilst epic battles can be fun, I quite like skirmishing and using forces very carefully, rather than large assaults, where some people use whole companies as bait.

[GAGA Extrem]

Well, i was messed up pretty bad in my last city fight.

I turned up with 2 Companies of green German Pz Pios and 1 Platoon of Vet. Pz Grens (incl. 4 HTs) against 1 Kompanie crack russian MPs and 1 Komp Pios (vet).

In addtion i had 2 vet Pz IIIJ, he had 2 T.34, 1 KV1, 1 BA-64 and 1 T-26s.

So my question is - how could I have killed these wacky MPs? I tried blowing up the buildings, but had little success, since his MPs nailed my men pretty fast.

In addition I lost my whole Pz Gren taskforce, because the entered a damaged building. After the first gren, the building turned up heavily damaged, and my men ran right in front of an enemy MP squad and died within seconds. Nasty...

[JasonC]

2 companies of panzer pioneers is a huge number of them. Not remotely a balanced force obviously.

Yes I prefer SMGs in urban to special weapons. 75m range usually beats 30m range. You lacked the other favorite German weapon for this type of fighting, large caliber direct HE (StuH, Brummbar, etc).

I'd get the Pz Gdrs out of the HTs instantly, and instead use those to run flamethrowers around. Occasionally a pioneer to use a DC instead.

Then you need situations where he can't see you even though you are 35m away or so. (Normally, big HE helps get that by driving men away from front windows. You could use a keyholed Pz III or HT, buttoned and using its MG(s) from about 50m, instead). Then you area fire with FTs or "use explosives" just beyond the limits of LOS.

His armor might also give you trouble, the KV in particular. You can kill them if they get close, but it isn't all that hard to stand off 35m and still get LOS to enemy infantry, while being protected by SMGs farther ahead. Just keyhole between SMG occupied buildings, for example.

The other thing you can do with SMGs is run them out of ammo in firefights that occur while you are still inside heavy building cover, and across the street from them - if not farther. Ideally you'd like to duel them at 100m or so for a good part of their ammo loads. They don't have to play, though.

SMGs can kill any number of men in the open, and about their own number inside heavy buildings at close range. But at longer ranges they can't kill their own number before running low on ammo. They are not trivial to kill even once low, because they will fire at close enemy even after hitting "low", but a lot easier than when full.

[GAGA Extrem]

Err, the match was already over when i posted this.

I lost 25%-75% w/ auto-surrender, but i was very unfortunate:

-> A complete Platoon Pz Grens. annihilated by above mentioned house leaving. Sucks...

-> 4 Flamethrowers KOd with one single salvo. And they were at least 15m away from each other...

-> My Komp HQs were Cons without any skills, also 2 of my platoon HQs... grr...

-> In addition, the big vicflag was placed in a 'backyard', sourrounded by houses, so i had no real chance to get him at high range

-> He had speed superiority. He had T-34 to transport a platoon of SMGs AND he had a road while i had to crawl through open ground. In addition, it was raining and grpund condition wet, thx god no vehicle bogged...

Oh, yes it was a ME, 1500 Points, random map, big city, Aug 42

Anyway, an enjoyable match with a lot off demo packing and collapsing houses 8]

[ January 07, 2006, 05:24 AM: Message edited by: GAGA Extrem ]

[jBrereton]

Seems that luck was wildly against you, to say the least.

Tanks seem to be fairly easy to handle with even mere grenades, but in an urban environment, you can easily run into enemy SMG squads, which are going to stop that kind of tactic being handy.

The Pioneers should have basically collapsed a wall of houses (if such a thing was possible) and then your forces could have used the ensuing smoke as cover for a fair few minutes.

But that's in ideal situations, I can understand your job being much harder than that. Russians are the better choice in urban combat, and using 2 companies of Panzer Pioneers probably didn't help your cause much then.