Realistic proportions - S/Shooters/THs/ATRs

[Apache]

I tend to use these quite a bit now but just wonder whether I buy too many (or too few). I tend to view sharpshooters as being the odd squaddie who is better with a rifle than most so I suppose you could end up with more of those. TH teams again I suppose are nothing special (they only seem to be armed with the same grenade bags? that squads/pioneers have. ATRs may be different though and later, schrecks.

I tend to use S/Shooters as scouts ahead of infantry advances, spotting for enemy positions. At first I thought it a bit wasteful, if one gets taken out there's 25 points gone BUT, if they walk into a Maxim at least it is only one that gets killed, not 3-5 of a split squad.

Looking at the numbers I buy up to on a per company/per battalion basis I will often take 2/6 sharpshooters (maybe 1/3 is better); 2/6 TH Teams and 1/3 ATRs. Any views? Interested to hear views on shreck balance too.

[Olle Petersson]

I don't think you overdo it.

One sharshooter per rifle platoon is my upper limit. (Based on modern organisation rather than WW2.)

Cheers

Olle

[JasonC]

You aren't saving anything by getting sharpshooters killed scouting. A half squad is no more valuable, somewhat less actually, and has a better chance of some of the men surviving first contact. Use them for ranged fire.

As for the numbers, if you buy too many you weaken your force. They are very expensive for the number of men you get, so unless you make serious use of their extra capabilities you are worse off than taking another platoon.

Personally, I find with sharpshooters that it is quality not quantity that matters. You don't get all that many shots you want to take with them. 1-2 of the highest quality I can get is all I usually take. The low quality ones I consider a waste.

ATRs are useful if the enemy has light armor, but again you don't need hordes of them because enemies typically don't have hordes of light armor. There are some exceptions - German ones in 1941 when so much of the Russian armor is lights, for instance. Otherwise, a few create the threat, which is what really restricts enemy light armor uses.

Schrecks on the other hand are very useful, and I take a fair number of those. They make anyplace you can get squad infantry yours and keep armor at a distance, in a way the mere tank hunters can't even approach. They are especially good at "coverage", meaning plugging what would otherwise be gaps in your anti-tank defense plan.

The ordinary infantry AT is often enough, but at least THs aren't expensive. The seperate unit mostly just lets you maneuver or rush them without exposing a whole squad. They also make decent ambush "listening posts" for defenders - cheap, some danger to armor, SMG firepower close - the "dummy" version of a squad infantry position.

Incidentally, you did not mention LMGs. They were quite bad in CMBO, but are much more useful now, especially for defenders. The main reason is easier pinning behavior. They can meaningfully slow down infantry crossing open ground areas. But also, they act as sound contact "dummy" HMGs, as all MGs are much harder to spot. The combination of the two makes them much more likely to live long enough to use their ammo.

The Russian ones have high ammo, too, though their firepower isn't great. Medium speed is not a serious drawback, since that is as fast as ordinary infantry can move without tiring, anyway. LMGs are my favorite "round out" for excess points these days, where in CMBO I would have taken more zooks or schrecks.

[Apache]

Thanks for responses. I'll give the split squads another try. I suppose 6 Vet SS at 25 each is a bit pricey and, other than 'Buttoning' enemy tanks I don't use the that much. Even on the defence I suspect an LMG would make a better 'stay bhind' harrier.

Still not sure what number would be classed as 'overdoing it' for the TH, ATR and Schreck Teams mind. Perhaps 3 ATR or Schrek (not both) per Coy (1 per platoon) or 4 -6 TH teams?

[JasonC]

Schrecks 1 per platoon is fine, or 2-4 per company. Those do scale up. I want 1-2 with every large infantry grouping, once they are available.

ATRs 2-4 for a whole force. You want LOS coverage but that is about it. I really only see a need for 3-4 if the force is multiple companies operating on different avenues. You get a few more flanking shots with 4, but they are most effective against the light armor, which they don't need flanks to hurt. But the extra cost of 4 rather than 2 is pretty trivial, so whatever works for you.

I don't find THs too useful and also stick to 2-4 for a whole force, with 1-2 in occupied, larger bodies of cover. I do not try to put one in every platoon, let alone more than that. You won't get that many chances to close assault tanks, and ordinary infantry has some close assault ability on its own.

Sharpshooters 1-2 of the best, as already mentioned. Far back on defense. On offense I sometimes skip them (they are best at men with little or no cover), when I take them they go (loosely) with "overwatch" heavy weapons groups (mortars, HMGs, FOs), as one more tool in their "bag of tricks".

As for LMGs, I sometimes take 6 of them or more even in a relatively small fight. I use them as singles for listening posts or delaying "dummies" on defense, and as a platoon support in pairs, typically on either side of the platoon HQ (sort of "second line"), on defense or the attack.

Note that on defense a pair of LMGs with a platoon position adds a significant "stealth bonus" to the regular infantry, in the sense that the platoon does not have to fully reveal itself to halt lone scouts. Keeping most guys on hide but still having some shooters is a very useful option to have.

As for half squad scouts, some infantry types take to it better than others. The Russian mobile SMGs are nearly perfect for it - split, you get a 3 SMG half squad. Which is very little to risk but still hits harder at point blank than an LMG. When tank riding you are left with an extra half squad anyway, to make room for the HQ.

The German pioneers are also good. They come "already split" but you can "quarter" them. The "light" half without an LMG is the one to split. They can clear mines, which is a useful ability for a scout. You may think them too valuable for it, but you get 6 small squads, so using just 1 of them for a pair of scouts is no big deal. You can pick whether to send the demo charges (they go with one half squad).

[ February 15, 2003, 09:54 AM: Message edited by: JasonC ]

[Apache]

Many thanks Jason. BTW I included your Arty 'rules' and TRP guide in my version of the Biltong Rules (duly credited). They are working out fine for me and I'll let you know some more feedback when I have played them more and when other players let me know. More and more I wish the Bn level support was available at the costs you suggest etc. I have dropped quite a lot of 105 use now unless I am defending or can afford 3.

[JasonC]

Here is a work-around I've found for prep fire and fire plan arty "discounts". Buy "unfit" "conscript" FOs. The shells fall just as well in fire plans, but they cost a lot less. Then use 2-3 of them and aim at the same point (use "group select" before targeting), "wide" sheaf. The closest thing to a battalion FO in today's CMBB. Scenario designers can specify that the unfit conscripts only be used for fire plan shoot; it is the most practical use for them anyway.

[John D Salt]

Originally posted by Apache:

I tend to use these quite a bit now but just wonder whether I buy too many (or too few). I tend to view sharpshooters as being the odd squaddie who is better with a rifle than most so I suppose you could end up with more of those. [snips]

Here's another snippet I found in the PRO today, in WO 208/1824, "Russian Tactics and Methods", in a paragraph titled "Note on snipers in the Red Army" (eliding for a moment the CM distinction between "sharpshooter" and "sniper"). This document says that snipers are organised in pairs, and that one pair is available to each HQ in an infantry regiment. Each platoon, company and battalion HQ has a pair, as does the regimental HQ. With a fully-triangular organisation, that adds up to 80 snipers for the whole regiment (26 per battalion, 8 per company); and "It is believed that in some regiments the number may be somewhat higher".

The document goes on to say:

"It is known that in some instances formations group all their snipers into one company under unified command. Such a company is then used as a mobile striking force wherever sudden appearance is likely to be effective; it is split into several groups of three or four pairs of snipers each."

All the best,

John.

[Apache]

Jason/John - thanks for the info/updates.

I had seen a reference to the use of conscript/green FOs in the other thread but wondered if that was being gamey. Perhaps for use at battalion level I'll 'allow' players to use 3 FOs at green but insist that the FO matches the 'quality' of the main force in other instances. At least the use og 'green' for fireplans is merely using a work around to get something into the game that it might have benefited from in the first place.

Not sure if you covered this in the previous post but, how do you see 81mm FOs sitting with 105/150s? When you choose the max two types of arty you deploy are the 81s included or are they, as I infer from your post, an 'always there regardless' option? Also with 81s, you do say you prefer battalion 81s, do you mean the 81mmm FO (e.g. battalion 'level') or 3 x 81mm (for a battalion shoot - or did 81s even fire in such big 'shoots'). Also, in what instances would you envisage the use of 81mm (single) mortars?

[Apache]

Bump - in case you missed it?

[MikeyD]

I've found a sharpshooter can do damage to an anti-tank gun very nicely, and they can stay undetected, and their range is much greater than some smg-toting team. Maybe you don't want to use them as scouts, but they still have their uses.

[JasonC]

Even the conscript FOs are not too cheap for prep and fire plan use, let alone the greens. I would certainly not recommend restricted their use, and it isn't "gamey" at all. There is no sense in paying for response time if you aren't getting it. In scenarios, I'd recommend even using -unfit- conscript FOs for large pre-planned missions; those are even cheaper.

If you are at all worried about the price (which I think would be misplaced, since pre-planned fire is not nearly as effective per shell), just use the ordinary quality settings of QBs. When e.g. the Russians take "low" quality, their infantry can be greens, and as compensation they pay only "conscript" prices for planned fire FOs. If they take "medium" quality to get regular maneuver forces, they pay "green" prices for FOs, and can pay up for regulars in the case of a few "reactive" batteries if they like.

This is actually a decent way to fight with the Russian infantry division types, and realistic for the mid war period in particular. With "random" rariety, you will often get -some- heavy artillery type that happens to be common for your fight. The higher level, slowest response time guns can get pretty cheap as conscripts, when the random rariety makes them common. You can get a decent prep fire or fire plan that way, without totally busting your budget. Attacking green infantry needs all the help it can get.

As for 81s and 82s compared to other types, they should not be as common as the div arty modules. Part of that is that there should not be more than 1 in any given battle, while there can be more than one of the heavier stuff. But also, there would be battles without them. By far the most common German support was 105mm howitzers. The Russians had 76mm, 120mm mortar, and 122mm howitzer as the common types.

As for on map 81s, people can take a pair of them whenever they like. 2 per company and 6 at battalion was a common deployment - but that doesn't mean they all had ammo, were in position and ready to fire, etc. Understand, the basic issue with 81s is not the tubes. It is ammo resupply.

They can fire so fast they can throw away all the ammo they are likely to see, in minutes. Then they are out of the battle (as mortarmen anyway - they often got all sorts of other duties), sometimes for days, until more rounds arrive. This is different than div arty guns, because the mortars go where the infantry goes (due to limited range). While div arty guns stay where ammo can be brought up to them easily.

I find them more useful on the attack in on map form, to smack point targets rapidly at the exact time required - while the FO version can be more useful on defense, as attackers tend to have less cover against their limited effect, and also to present larger targets.

Larger numbers wouldn't be completely unrealistic (up to 10 per battalion on the map, even, which few would actually reach), but the additional impact of scads of them is minor. You just don't get that many point targets, and the cost per shell is rather high if you try to buy lots. You can also hit the point limits for the "support" category on defense, very easily.

The one attacking mission for them in FO form is smoke barrages. Those are somewhat overused, partially because in the game heavy HE barrages don't throw up the big clouds of dust they did in real life. That is gamier than cheaper FOs for prep fire use only, certainly. But you won't stop people from doing it.

[Apache]

Thanks for the reply. Useful stuff.