Panther Fibel Discussion of Range Estimation

[Mr. Tittles]

Its pretty clear that the Germans had not only well made and superior optics, but that they had gunners sights that allowed ranging estimation directly (strich method) and also that some German AFVs were equipped with true range determining devices.

The scissors-scopes accuracy would be very interesting. That is, could the typically trained TC MEASURE range to +/- 100m or so? Out to what range?

I find rexfords claim that...

The Panther 75mm would still miss more often than not at ranges beyond 700m, and it would be expected that the gunner might have as good, if not better, range estimate than the commander if the triangles were used. Two heads are better than one if the driver cannot see the target (a hulldown position would almost automatically limit or rule out a driver range estimate, especially if the tank were hidden in the brush).

..to be somewhat odd. He seems fascinated by this averaging method. I have never heard of anyone using such a method.

Also, in light of how accurate the panther gun was when the range WAS known (see website), and the fact that there could be a scissors scope aboard, his claim about panther accuracy is incorrect.

http://www.geocities.com/desertfox1891/pzpanther/pzpanther-Charakteristics.html

Having just a pair of these scissors scopes would be great for setting up a defense. Since they do not rely on target height/width, they could be used to set up range cards so that a ATG or other AFV would increase first round hits. A platton leader could use his radio to share range data and use platoon fire at long range targets (burns up ammo but its safer than a knife fight).

[ July 15, 2004, 05:56 PM: Message edited by: Mr. Tittles ]

[danielh]

Mr. Tittles,

In open terrain i would set 1000m as default range. In case a tank pops up near, say at around 500m which in the scope at 2.5 Mag will look as 250m (quite BIG), i would know out of experience to aim slightly (ca. 1m relative) under the tracks and hit him with high probability. It's up to the experience of the gunner.

(A target near will have a very broadrange of rangesolutions which will still hit the target)

But again this of course is only true for tanks in plain open. (I know from experience in WWII-Online how difficult target aquisition can be when an enemy tank hides somewhere 1000-1500 m away in Hulldown and covered by foliage, i operated a 8.8 and my driver called out a tank at 3 o clock, i could not find him for quite a while..., and never really knew i hit until he despawned)

To the Scissors telescope: It had a 14x magnification (3° FOW) and was standard issue for TCs in StuG-Abteilungen.

When used for stereoscopic measurement (both objectives 0.9m from each other) the following accuracy was possible:

Range theor. Error pract. Error (x3)

1000m 4m 12m

2000m 16m 48m

3000m 36m 108m

4000m 63m 189m

However stereoscopic rangefinders only work for users with stereoscopic sight, because the creation of a 3D-Image with a sense of depth is created by the brain solely, and some training is highly advisable.

Source: pg151 of Spielbergers book of the Panther

Greets

Daniel

[Mr. Tittles]

Range theor. Error pract. Error (x3)

1000m 4m 12m

2000m 16m 48m

3000m 36m 108m

4000m 63m 189m

Yowza. In the case of a Jagdpanzer IV/L70 (which also had scissor scopes for commander like stugs), the accuracy and first round hits would be phenomenal. Likewise, the Jagdpanther would be very scary at long range. The only saving tactic would be to move like crazy and use LOTS of smoke. I have read that stugs could often hit targets beyond the effective penetrating range so that there was range SOP for engaging targets.

Interestingly, the jagdtiger was used by carius against the west. He mentions problems with the vehicles loosing zero on short moves if the gun was not secured down. It did have some long range firepower once zeroed (these vehicles also featured the scissor-scope). He describes destroying a sherman behind a house with a delay fuze. He must have fired a HE if there was a delay.

[ July 16, 2004, 12:54 PM: Message edited by: Mr. Tittles ]

[Mr. Tittles]

Here is an exterior view of the commanders scissors scope in a Jagdtiger. They could be raised and lowered internally and then the vision block persiscope (directly behind the scissor scopes, could be used. The whole arrangement could rotate also.

[Andrew H.]

Originally posted by Mr. Tittles:

Here is an exterior view of the commanders scissors scope in a Jagdtiger. They could be raised and lowered internally and then the vision block persiscope (directly behind the scissor scopes, could be used. The whole arrangement could rotate also.

Interesting. The scissors scope can't be used as a rangefinder in the configuration shown in this picture (nor in the picture shown of the guy in the StuG) - they need to be spread out so that the barrels are parallel to the ground. This gives you about a 1 meter separation between the objective lenses, which is apparently the separation you want to get meaningful stereoscopic results. Some scissors scopes in fixed locations had a two meter spread.

What I can't tell from the detail of the StuG mounting in the picture you linked above is whether the scope could be cranked up so that it could be used in stereo mode from within the cupola - while there are obviously many occasions when you'll just want to use the SFs as periscopes, it would seem silly (and unGerman, even, not to make a provision for using the SF-14 as a rangefinder).

I think that there are many applications where the rangefinder would be fairly unwieldy to use - it would be great from ambush, or just for determining the distance of targets that don't know you're there - but if you encountered another tank without while moving, I don't believe that that there would be time to stop the tank, crank the rangefinder out horizontally, stereo in the other tank to get the range, and then to fire in a timely manner. Unless you are safely out of range of the other tanks, which is not inconceivable - the Jagdpz'ers, etc. were supposed to fire from ambush, ideally at targets too far away to effectively return fire. Which may account for why they have the SF-14s in the first place.

[Mr. Tittles]

Heres the jagdtiger interior shot. They could be raised higher and I assume this would allow them to scissor out. Do you know for a fact they had to be all the way out or are you just theorizing? Being further out may just make for more accuracy but not negate using them entirely.

[Mr. Tittles]

http://www.meninblack.net/images/museaum/muse032.gif

Hers a BC scope. It is mentioned being used by a US TD unit here...

http://skyways.lib.ks.us/museums/kng/635TDB.html

Ray Klein, Company B, tells this story-----On June 22, 1944, Colonel Taylor of the 18th Regiment, lst Infantry Division told me that a German tank was firing into the Battalion area. He said to locate the tank and stop the firing. The 2nd Lieutenant in charge of their platoon of 57mm anti-tank guns and I moved one of our 3rd platoon 635th 3" guns into a spot where we had a clear shot. The German tank was spotted camaflouged on a small trail of a forward slope. I had a BC scope and estimated the distance at 2500 yards. He and I had a wager on the distance. (I'm sure with a little more digging I can identify the gun crew that fired). We hit the tank with our lst round of APC. A couple of the crew bailed out, so we fired some HE around it. It was the 3rd platoon, not the 2nd, as listed in the After Action Reports. Later that day the infantry Lieutenant went in with a patrol to verify the destruction of the tank. When the patrol came back the Infantry Company Commander told me that the 57mm Lieutenant that had gone to check the tank, had been shot through the chest, and left by the Germans

[Mr. Tittles]

http://www.dpidb.belozersky.msu.ru/users/drabkin/Shutc/Shutc_e.htm

Seems the Soviets had one per AA battery.

The battery commander assigned our duties and I became a range finder. As it turns out, stereoscopic perception, that is the ability to differentiate distances to objects and determine their relative distance, is particularly subjective. The test was extremely simple: the commander pointed at a tree and a pole, which were approximately 800 meters away from us, and asked which one was farther. Since I had responded correctly I became a range finder. At that time our battery consisted of four guns which were positioned as if at the vertices of a square with sides of 100-150 meters. The command post was located at the center of the square and consisted of waist high foxholes for the spotter, the range finder, and the commander. The battery commander and the guns were connected by wire communications. In reality, during battle, there was no possibility to give voice commands because of the din of salvos, that's why we developed a special system of prearranged signals.

[Mr. Tittles]

http://lmd-militaria.com/page194.html

German 37mm and above range finder (one per gun?)

[Mr. Tittles]

Hetzer commanders station

[Mr. Tittles]

I came across an account of Panther range finding recently. The panther is in a defensive position and uses its coax MG to determine ranges to likely approaches. The TC makes a sketch and records the ranges. A bunch of sherman tanks aproach and he KOs 5 in quick succesion at ranges of 500-700 meters as they come past ranged points.

[Mr. Tittles]

Zorki 1

In 1941, in order to produce optical equipment for the Soviet war effort, several workshops were consolidated in a former earthenware factory in Krasnogorsk, a western suburb of Moscow. On June 22 of that year, the Nazis broke their non-aggression treaty by invading the Soviet Union, and by late summer, the German army was within sight of Moscow. The workers in Krasnogorsk were evacuated to safer territories to the East. The Nazis attack stalled outside of Moscow, however, and a counterattack by the Red Army drove the Germans more than 100 miles back by December.

Freed from the threat of the German army, the workers were recalled to Krasnagorsk, where the combined optical workshop became Krasnogorski Mekhanicheskii Zavod (KMZ) – Mechanical Factory of Krasnogorsk. At this point in the war, KMZ became the prime supplier of optical equipment, binoculars, rangefinders, gunsights, etc., for the Soviet military.

Seems the Soviet optics industry was not over run like many of the weapons/ammunition factories.

[ July 27, 2004, 12:53 AM: Message edited by: Mr. Tittles ]

[rexford]

Originally posted by Mr. Tittles:

I find rexfords claim that...

The Panther 75mm would still miss more often than not at ranges beyond 700m, and it would be expected that the gunner might have as good, if not better, range estimate than the commander if the triangles were used. Two heads are better than one if the driver cannot see the target (a hulldown position would almost automatically limit or rule out a driver range estimate, especially if the tank were hidden in the brush).

..to be somewhat odd. He seems fascinated by this averaging method. I have never heard of anyone using such a method.

Also, in light of how accurate the panther gun was when the range WAS known (see website), and the fact that there could be a scissors scope aboard, his claim about panther accuracy is incorrect.

http://www.geocities.com/desertfox1891/pzpanther/pzpanther-Charakteristics.html

My claim about Panther accuracy is not incorrect, just applies to the first shot when the range is not precisely known. I think you may be a little quick to disregard opinions sometimes. ;o)

The Tiger Fibel has considerable write-up on the range estimation averaging method, and even if the driver were excluded by the situation the commander and gunner together would produce a better estimate than one guy alone.

I don't see how a scissors scope is going to allow range finding like with a stereoscopic range finder. Could you provide some details to help me understand what would happen?

Tom Rodwell did an analysis of Michael Wittmann's heroics with a StuG IIIA or B against T34's, where he used the scissors scope to ambush the enemy and produce better range estimates.

Tom's reasoning on the scissors scope impact on range estimation was that the stereoscopic view (two eyes) allowed the user to better estimate range than with the normal gunner's sight (one eyeball).

Interesting issue.

Lorrin

Thanks.

Lorrin

[rexford]

AFV Interiors indicates that the scissors periscope was occasionally found in tanks.

[rexford]

Daniel,

Where did you get the idea about setting the gun range setting default to 1000m and aiming below the tank to bring the trajectory onto the target?

Is this tactic limited to German tanks in WW II-Online?

We have been discussing whether the Germans used a "battlesight" type aim during the war, where the gun range would be set to 800m and shots would be aimed at target bottom, resulting in a trajectory below or close to the target height at all ranges. The Tiger 88L56 firing APCBC would score over 92% average accuracy against a 2m high target from 0m to 700m if the range were set at 800m with target bottom aim.

The Panzertaktik book states that German tanks would carry an AP round in the gun and the range set to 800m or 1000m. Our calculations indicate that those range settings together with target bottom aim would result in a high average hit probability at the following ranges:

For APC or APCBC ammo:

Over 90% from 0m to 700m, over 70% from 700m to 800m: 50L60, 75L48, 75L46 and 88L56

Over 90% from 0m to 800m, over 70% from 800m to 1000m: 88L71 and 75L70

Lorrin

[Mr. Tittles]

Originally posted by rexford:

I don't see how a scissors scope is going to allow range finding like with a stereoscopic range finder. Could you provide some details to help me understand what would happen?

Tom Rodwell did an analysis of Michael Wittmann's heroics with a StuG IIIA or B against T34's, where he used the scissors scope to ambush the enemy and produce better range estimates.

Tom's reasoning on the scissors scope impact on range estimation was that the stereoscopic view (two eyes) allowed the user to better estimate range than with the normal gunner's sight (one eyeball).

A scissor scope IS a stereoscopic rangefinder. The TC would adjust the device till the object he was looking at was in focus and then read the range off a small window. It is a measuring instrument and not a guestimator. Have you read this thread??

Also, your claim that a Panther would miss as much as hit at 700m (seems you mean a first round attempt) seems to indicate less than a 50% chance? Even though you never stipulated, I assume the target/firer are not moving.

[rexford]

Tom Rodwell indicated that the StuG IIIA scissor scope had 5X magnification, and could be used for range estimation. Wittmann primarily used the scissor scope to hide in ambush and look over the vegetation hiding his StuG.

One web site had a modern stereoscopic range finder with 14x magnification, 3 degree FOV and 90cm width, which seems consistent with an earlier post.

From what was said on this thread, scissor scopes are not range finders unless both arms are horizontal, which seems to be what several web sites I looked also suggested. In the pictures of tank, StuG and JgPz use the scissor scopes are not horizontal, which suggests that they would not and could not be used for range estimation.

So with little door openings with scissor scopes protruding above the vehicle top, scissors scopes would have a limited use and benefit.

A book on Tiger tanks indicated some Tiger E's had a stereoscopic range finder holder built on top of the turret.

There are many pictures of 88mm Flak crewmembers holding and looking through a stereoscopic range finder which appears to be about 90cm wide. The range finder has both arms horizontal in all the pictures I've seen.

[rexford]

Originally posted by danielh:

In case of the Panther and Tiger:

A Tank 3m tall at 1000m will show as 3mils in the sight, correct "Nabelvisier" would be 1300m to hit him squarely in the middle. My "error-range" to still hit the tank with high probability is 800 - 1200m (In the first case a target 3m tall would show as nearly 4.5 mils, in the second at around 2 1/4 mils. One must have quite bad eyesight to make such an error when target is not in cover. First round hits will be the norm here

In this two respects CMBB is very bad in calculating hit probability. In case 1 CMBB hit probabilities are much to low, in case 2 they are way to high. In fact hit probs are much to much leveled out.

Greets

Daniel

There appears to be something wrong with the above analysis, and the Tiger Fibel presents a slightly different instruction which is echoed in the Panther Fibel.

If a 3m high T34 is spotted at 1000m, it would appear to be 3 mils high. The German Fibel instruction for range setting is to take the perceived height, divide it by 2, multiply by 100m and add to the range estimate. So a 3m high target at 1000m would result in a 1150m final adjusted range estimate.

And a 3m high target at 1050m would result in a 1200m range estimate. Check the example of crew range estimate averaging in the Tiger Fibel, page 66 or 67 I believe.

The Germans show many drawings in the Fibel where the purpose of one half the perceived height times 100m is meant to hit Elvira in the navel even though the gun sight is lined up with the target bottom.

For a 2m high target at 500m, the perceived height on the gun sight is 4m and 100m times half the perceived height adds 200m, for a 700m gun setting. There is a drawing in the Tiger Fibel which directly illustrates this example, 2m high Elvira at 500m and a 700m aim to put a shot through her navel.

If a target is at 1000m and one aims the 88mm L56 APCBC at 1300m range and target bottom,the average trajectory will be about 2.95m above the aim point or target bottom. This will miss a T34 quite often, and will miss many other targets if some of the tank bottom is shielded by small folds or curves in the ground.

If the target is at 1000m and one aims at target bottom and 1150m, as noted above, the average trajectory will be 1.46m above target bottom. 1.46m above target bottom is close to half way up on a 3m high target.

Please also note that a 3m high target which appears to be 3 mils high at 1000m will look like 3.75 mils at 800m, not 4.5 mils. And that 3m high target will appear to be 2.5 mils high when it is at 1200m, not 2.25m. The perceived height at any range equals perceived height at 1000m (3 mils) times 1000m divided by actual range.

[ August 04, 2004, 02:54 PM: Message edited by: rexford ]

[Mr. Tittles]

The scissor scopes are clearly used as rangefinders in StuGs. Its preposterous to think they weren't. Evidence exists that they were used as such (again, please read through thread).

I have never heard of anyone using a group-estimation method. And besides the Tigerfibel (and not the pantherfibel), can you support its use anywhere else? Does the fact that it is NOT mentioned in the Pantherfibel imply anything?

I am sure all combatants used a battlesight method of sorts

[Mr. Tittles]

Here's an excerpt from '7000 Km in a Sturmgeshutz' (Heinrich Engel -Knights Cross holder)

All of a sudden, four T34 emerged on our left. The German counterattack had just started on our right The russian tanks wanted to intervene, but they had to move right across our field of fire. We KOd 2 of the tanks right off. The others came into the field of fire of the StuG located just to my right, and another was KOd. The fourth Russian tank thereupon turned around and attempted to move back. At that point, he had to cross our field of fire again, this time right to left. He moved at top speed, but round after round left left the barrel of our gun. He had only 100 m or so to get back to his departure point in the village. However, our 5th or 6th round hit him somewhere. He came to a stop. "He's Stopped!" we shouted, that was as a good as a sure thing. We were very quiet in our StuG.

I let the cross-level settle down and corrected the range "1700 m, Fire when ready!". Observing through the scissors telescope, I followed the 2 second tracer path of the AP round. Closer and Closer it came to the tank-a hit!. The turret flew some distance away and the tank burned!

The author, a StuG TC, is clearly describing using a scissors scopeto measure range. He is the one that orders the corrected range to the gunner.

This example clearly demonstrates how difficult it is to hit a moving target compared to a stationary one also.

[ August 05, 2004, 08:28 AM: Message edited by: Mr. Tittles ]

[flamingknives]

No reason that scissor scopes can't be used to measure range when the arms are not horizontal. However, the closer the objective lenses are together, the shorter your baseline is and the less accurate your range is, as the point where the two images converge is less obvious.

[Mr. Tittles]

This is a close up crop of the gunner's side of the 8.8cm gun again, this time focusing on the overhead hatch and empty sight bracket for the SflZF1a/Rblf36 direct/indirect sight. This was the same excellent sight design used in the later versions of the StuG III, StuG IV, Jagdpz IV, as well as the Hetzer. It is a monocular 5X sight with an eight degree field of view and allows both indirect and direct firing solutions.

This is from afv interior website about Elephant regarding its gunsight. The point is; did the German AG/Jagdpanzers have better gunners sights AND TC scissors scopes (standard) than panzers?

Rexford claims that scissors scopes were 5X. This is wrong.

[ August 05, 2004, 09:31 AM: Message edited by: Mr. Tittles ]

[Mr. Tittles]

http://tiger1.info/fibel/index.html

Heres a site that may have an english Tigerfibel translation available.

[Mr. Tittles]

This pic shows that a Hornet (Nashorn) appears to have a Scissor scope.

In Panzer Aces, the crews are described using scissor scopes.

[ August 05, 2004, 11:58 AM: Message edited by: Mr. Tittles ]

[rexford]

Originally posted by flamingknives:

No reason that scissor scopes can't be used to measure range when the arms are not horizontal. However, the closer the objective lenses are together, the shorter your baseline is and the less accurate your range is, as the point where the two images converge is less obvious.

And in most of the pictures the scissors scope arms seem to be very close together. Best accuracy at 90cm, how close in those pictures where the scissors are protruding above the turret or SPG top?

Various sites on the German stereoscopic rangefinder indicate that a small percent of people have the needed vision, and even among those that do their power to use the scope varies widely from day to day.

Between all the variables it would seem that the high accuracy quoted in the earlier posts could be a sometimes thing as opposed to the norm.