LOS from ground or eyes?

[Yskonyn]

I wonder if the LOS tool actually takes unit height innto account as I've seen infantry peeking above a slope and still not able to spot the enemy. It sometime seems as if the LOS is calculated from the units base instead of taking 'eye-height' into account.

Anyone care to comment?

[flamingknives]

The units (infantry and vehicles) seen in the game are not what the computer uses to determine unit position. For a start you can re-size the units (shift-c, IIRC).

Infantry and guns are treated as single point, as far as I can tell, while vehicles are two points, to differentiate between hull-up and hull-down. Woods, houses and even the ground are similarly abstracted.

[GreenAsJade]

(edit)I take it all back: I just went and had a close look, and tanks do appear to be visible peaking over the top at normal scale before LOS is there. And this makes somes sense: LOS is given when you can _take aim and hit_. I guess when the tippy top of a cuppola is visible at the crest of a hill it doesn't mean you can "see the tank" in the sense that you can shoot at it.

[ November 26, 2004, 12:44 AM: Message edited by: GreenAsJade ]

[GreenAsJade]

Also, you can get a nasty suprise that confirms a unit's height is taken into account - at least tanks.

Here's how: suppose you set an ATG covered arc that includes a a place on the ground that is just over a hill. The gun reports out of LOS for that spot ... you don't want to trigger on a tank there, but it doesn't matter 'cause it's out of LOS so it won't trigger anyhow, and it's handy to draw the arc across other places you do care abouout.

Youch! When a tank goes there the covered arc will trigger, because the tanks is higher up than the spot on the ground that was out of LOS!

(This mistake on my part cost me a ATG, and probably turned a game from a potential win into a definite loss :-( )

Moral - don't lazily draw covered arcs through out of LOS places!

[Yskonyn]

Thanks guys, but GreenAsJade, from your second post I understand that the LOS as employed in the game is awkward; if you lost your ATG to the Tank this means the tank could see your ATG before it could see the tank. That sounds quite strange if the tank is up the hill intially out of sight. The tank structure is way higher than a ATG so he should see the tank first, correct?

[flamingknives]

I don't think the tank got the drop on the ATG, it sounds more like it won the gun duel.

This concurs with what i suspect is the model. Tanks (all vehicles, infact) are two-point models. The lower one, comparable to the Infantry and gun units is used for attacks going to and from the lower hull. This includes any hull mounted MG, even when this is in the glacis/driver plate, and the glacis/driver plate can be hit. The upper point is used for line of sight to and from the turret and upper hull. The ATG might not be able to see a particular spot on the ground or infantry at that point, but it will see the higher point representing the turret. The tank will be hull down to the ATG.

[GreenAsJade]

Knives is right: the two units saw each other at the same time. The problem was that I wasn't expecting the them to be in LOS of each other at all.

When the tank was not in the position, the LOS marker indicated "sight blocked"... that was sight blocked to the ground. When the tank was in the positon, suddenly it was able to be seen. This caused the ATG to open fire at a hull down tank, which was bad juju....

[FM Paul Heinrik]

What is the "normal" viewing size to help LOS identification? I usually play the default setting #3 I think it is.

[flamingknives]

#1 is true scale, but LoS is independent of unit size beyond possibly vehicles and the two point system.

[Yskonyn]

Yeah, but on Actual sized units the LOS must be in contrast with the unit sizes anyhow, so it only gets independent if you use unit sized above realistic as far as I understand.