Is force size estimation gamey?

[Phemur]

In QB games, I often estimate the size and strength of remaining opposition once I see a few units. For example, in my last game, three Ferdinands were quickly identified. Since it was a 1500 point QB, I knew there couldn't be many more units, so I adapted my strategies and tactics accordingly.

Is this gamey? Sometimes I think it is, since it is using the game system for information and advantage. On the other hand, it can easily be justified as "military intelligence" or pre-battle recon.

If it is considered gamey, how can it be prevented? There's no way to prevent players from knowing the point value of the opposing force, so how do you keep players from using that information to gain advantage?

Phemur

[Soddball]

The best solution is to play scenarios that neither of you have played before. That's all that I can suggest, and I suppose that estimation is a bit 'gamey', but if you're playing a Quick Battle then you can't get much more 'gamey'.

[theike]

U dont... Not in quickbattle

But u could use rarity in presetting the battle rules...that could vary things a bit.

And there is the size of force option, of + and - points, but u would probably know what your opponent might do, since he would chooze highest + of what u might agree on...so...

(One wouldnt attack irl either without some sort of a estemate to what force one would engage, mostly...)

And it IS a game, its impossible to not get SOME gamy stuff (with playing a game.)

[ July 04, 2003, 10:12 AM: Message edited by: theike ]

[zukkov]

hell if i saw 3 ferds in the game, i damn sure wouldn't be worried about what else he had! lol..

[vbfg]

Originally posted by Phemur:

In QB games, I often estimate the size and strength of remaining opposition once I see a few units. For example, in my last game, three Ferdinands were quickly identified. Since it was a 1500 point QB, I knew there couldn't be many more units, so I adapted my strategies and tactics accordingly.

Is this gamey? Sometimes I think it is, since it is using the game system for information and advantage. On the other hand, it can easily be justified as "military intelligence" or pre-battle recon.

If it is considered gamey, how can it be prevented? There's no way to prevent players from knowing the point value of the opposing force, so how do you keep players from using that information to gain advantage?

Phemur

There's not much you can do about it even if it is gamey. You can decide not to persue certain lines of thought but sometimes things just occur to you. The other day I played one of the scenarios on the CD for the first time and noticed that I was getting 88s as part of my reinforcements. I don't often play the kind of battles that warrant having them around, and I assumed the scenario designer wouldn't give me them and potentially upset play balance if I wasn't likely to need them. From that point on my entire expectation of the game was coloured by the assumption an armoured counter attack would appear, probably in the latter half of the game. Sure enough, two platoons of T-34s and a platoon of Valentines showed up. Of course I'd lost my 88s by then to an air strike as my infantry were clearing the positions I had ear marked for them....

[Phemur]

hell if i saw 3 ferds in the game, i damn sure wouldn't be worried about what else he had! lol..

That was my first thought as well. But when I started formulating a plan to take them out. Plan A was to get my T-34s around to his rear, and fire at them from there. That didn't work.

Plan B was to get my SMG squads in close enough to assault the tanks. That eventually worked.

But to do so, I had to get through whatever other units he had out there, and that's when I started guessing at what else he could have out there.

This is a normal thing to do, and I'm sure field commanders in WWII did the same. Except that they didn't know what their opponent's purchase budget was.

Phemur

[MikeyD]

Perhaps you can consider your knowledge as "intelligence". Spies working behind enemy lines, scouting out the garrison, telling you force size estimates, numbers of tanks last seen in depot and what their unit markings are. So in the big picture, you could avoid the 'gamey' label doing this.

I've notice the AI seems to take the same advantage. Lose your last tank during a game and suddenly the AI becomes much more aggressive, like it knew it was your last tank and it no longer had anything to worry about... at least that's been my impression.

[zukkov]

also you have to remember that field commanders weren't usually limited to 30 or so minutes to accomplish their mission. consider it a trade off...

[SeaLion]

Knowing the point limit to the game won't help that much because some players will make unusual choices when selecting units -- you might see 3 ferdinands, assume he has no more, and then move some tanks out to get behind them. Then when you see he has one more ferdinand, you actually suffer a disadvantage because of your calculation. Also, as in most games, both players should fight and think to the best of their ability. Both CBBO and life are like a chess game -- you should always be thinking three moves in advance

[Phemur]

Knowing the point limit to the game won't help that much because some players will make unusual choices when selecting units -- you might see 3 ferdinands, assume he has no more, and then move some tanks out to get behind them.

I disagree. We were playing a 1500 point Unrestricted Meeting Engagement battle, with rarity on. Once I knew my opponent had 3 Ferdinands, I knew that would be the bulk of his force, considering that they are 300+ point a piece. That left him with roughly 500 points left for the rest of his force.

Granted, I didn't know what else might be back there, but I knew it was impossible for him to have another 3 Ferdinands.

Since I had 3 in my line of sight, I knew that I wouldn't get surprised and wipped out by something in the rear. There simply weren't enough points left to allow for a sizeable force beyond the visible Ferdinands. Let's assume he had gone with more armor. At 500 points, you can only buy one or two heavy tanks, 3 or 4 medium tanks, 5-7 light tanks.

If he had picked medium or light tanks, I was ok. I sent 4 T-34, which can handle most German light and medium armor, and even a few of the Heavies.

If he had picked heavy armor, there only would have been one more. Still not a problem, as I had a lot of infantry. As a matter of fact, it probably would have been to my advantage, as it was his infantry that kept my infantry from moving to assault his Ferdinands. Another Ferdinand wouldn't have provided any help.

Finally, if the game had been set to something other than unrestricted (which will be the case in most games from now on), I would have had a really good idea of what I'd be facing, either more tanks, infantry, etc. Although, he wouldn't have had 3 Ferdinands to begin with.

Phemur

[Dook]

Somebody posted a possible solution to the problem of advance knowledge of the opponent's point budget in QBs a while back. See this thread. The basic idea is that players don't have to spend to their limits and in exchange don't have to capture as many flags. Of course, you would still know the maximum budget of your opponent, meaning that if you saw 3 Ferdinands, he couldn't have much more.