** Mod posted ** StuG III E

[Bogdan]

Hello there,

I have finally done the StuG IIIE mod ! The aerial recognition flag is in the ZIP package as an option (Thanks again to PanzerMartin ) I'm now beginning the winter version...

Here is the screenshot :

Available at cmmods.com

Best regards

[ July 28, 2003, 05:20 AM: Message edited by: Bogdan ]

[tooz]

Merci beaucoup mon ami! C'est formidable. Now I can enjoy these stugs immediately!

Looking forward to the winterized Stug.

[Bogdan]

You're welcome Tooz :cool:

I'm actually trying to recreate a hasty whitewash effect. I remember a WW2 picture where a german driver painted his PSW with brush made of branches or so...

More news tomorrow...

Cheers !

[Bogdan]

Effectivelly, the crew of this PSW painted the vehicle with a kind of broom/brush (word from my dictionnary :confused: ), made with wood branches.

Yours,

[lcm1947]

Very good one Bogdan we needed this one done. It looks to be a beauty and I can't wait to get it in the game. Thanks for another great looking mod.

[Bogdan]

Thanks ! Promised, the winter StuG will be available tomorrow

Best regards.

[John Kettler]

Bogdan,

Maybe my eyes have gone, the computer's on the fritz, or it's a Netscape 4.8 display glitch, but your StuG looks dark bluish purple, not Panzer grau. The color is close in value to Union blue from the American Civil War and seems, based on what I can tell, way too dark to be Panzer grau. I really do hope the apparent problem is on my end.

Also, I wrote you a note on your original paint scheme query thread.

Regards,

John Kettler

[M Hofbauer]

Originally posted by John Kettler:

Bogdan,

Maybe my eyes have gone, the computer's on the fritz, or it's a Netscape 4.8 display glitch, but your StuG looks dark bluish purple, not Panzer grau. The color is close in value to Union blue from the American Civil War and seems, based on what I can tell, way too dark to be Panzer grau. I really do hope the apparent problem is on my end.

Also, I wrote you a note on your original paint scheme query thread.

Regards,

John Kettler

well, Panzer Grau *was* very very dark. More like black than grey, IMHO.

You could hardly make PanzerGrau too dark.

The HDV that introduced the color Dunkelgrau Nr.46 as the all-over one-color scheme "Dunkelgrauer Anstrich 1940" was the Verfügung v. 31.7.1949 - HM 40/864. It superseded the former Dunkelgrau-Dunkelbraun two-color scheme that had the Dunkelgrau Nr.46 and the Dunkelbraun Nr.45 that was introduced as per HM 37/340 dated 12.7.1937, revised by HM 38/687 (2.11.1938).

Since both the dark grey and the dark brown had the emphasis on "DARK", it is actually really hard to make out the "Dunkelgrau-Dunkelbrauner Anstrich 1937" on contemporary pictures (whioch featured an overall-coverage of 2/3 dark grey and 1/3 dark brown).

The famous "Dungelgelber Anstrich 1943" was introduced by HM 43/181 with Verfügung vom 18.2.1943 and featured the dark ocre RAL 7028 Dunkelgelb.

If anything, the PanzerGrau in this StuG III Ausf.E seems quite a bit too light to me. But too dark? Naw.

[Bogdan]

(copy of my post of the other topic, in order to centralize all the messages...)

Originally posted by John Kettler:

Bogdan,

Recourse to my rather limited armor camouflage and markings sources showed a StuG F still sporting a Panzer grau overall scheme during the Don battles in summer 1942. I therefore concur with the Panzer grau recommendations for your StuG E. What you can do, though, is what the Germans did to tone down and blend in the easily spotted Panzer grau--smear mud on the vehicle. No, I don't mean dust and grime; I mean mud deliberately applied over the paint and allowed to dry. I believe the Squadron PANZER COLORS guides will have a bunch of examples.

Regards,

John Kettler

Thanks for the post John. In fact, I think the panzer grey color depends many of the color settings of monitors. I agree the fact that my mod is a bit blue. First, I used a completely grey scheme and found it too light : the vehicule looked like it was in greyscale mod ! I then added a deep blue layer (mix of blue and black) in order to find a correct color. Ok, maybe it is a bit too blue !

I had a look at many plastic modeling websites, military books (Panzer colors for example) and other sources on Internet. I found that panzers were not so grey, but much more "petrol blue" or even black ! I've read in a book about early war campaign (Poland, France...) that some tank crews painted their tank with gaz (word ?) in order to create a black effect.

You must know that I didn't want to obtain a pink/mauve effect but I would prefer a grey/blue painting rather than a completely grey appearance, just to say that it was the historical "panzergrau"...

Please tell me if I'm wrong but, even if this habit of darkening the panzers was forgotten in 1941 - 1942 (period of availability of the StuG IIIE), the panzers were totally grey only at the exit of the factory ! They quickly looked dusty and muddy, even rusted with time.

Here are some photos that helped me to find a good color... :

But if you still want an old good grey StuG, I'm your man !

Best regards.

[M Hofbauer]

Originally posted by Bogdan:

(copy of my post of the other topic, in order to centralize all the messages...)

Thanks for the post John. In fact, I think the panzer grey color depends many of the color settings of monitors. I agree the fact that my mod is a bit blue. First, I used a completely grey scheme and found it too light : the vehicule looked like it was in greyscale mod ! I then added a deep blue layer (mix of blue and black) in order to find a correct color. Ok, maybe it is a bit too blue !

IMHO black is closer to the truth than anything I've seen so far.

I had a look at many plastic modeling websites, military books (Panzer colors for example) and other sources on Internet. I found that panzers were not so grey, but much more "petrol blue" or even black !

right on.

I've read in a book about early war campaign (Poland, France...) that some tank crews painted their tank with gaz (word ?) in order to create a black effect.

yes, POLs would stain the mat black and make it even darker.

You must know that I didn't want to obtain a pink/mauve effect but I would prefer a grey/blue painting rather than a completely grey appearance, just to say that it was the historical "panzergrau"...

Please tell me if I'm wrong but, even if this habit of darkening the panzers was forgotten in 1941 - 1942 (period of availability of the StuG IIIE), the panzers were totally grey only at the exit of the factory ! They quickly looked dusty and muddy, even rusted with time.

yes, the tanks looked considerably "lighter" in the field. The factory fresh black would soon becoem lighter due to the paint becoming even more mat, and dust and dirt would also lighten things up.

Here are some photos that helped me to find a good color... :

the Panzergrau in those two pictures is WAY too light.

The first pic shows a whitewash, but even those darker spots that show the underlying dark grey are waaay to light. Stripes of whitewash on a Panzergrau tank should almost look like a Zebra.

The second pis is...well, simply ridiculously light. Looks a bit like Feldgrau, but Panzergrau? Naw.

take a look here:

I posted a whole shlew of pics but this cursed board only allows 8 images per post, and the links are all lost now!

THANK YOU for such an idiot policy!

I also lost the text I added. Grrrr.

[ July 29, 2003, 10:27 AM: Message edited by: M Hofbauer ]

[M Hofbauer]

ok I resurrected some of the pics I meant to show you to illustrate just how dark Panzergrau could actually be.

^^note how dark the SdKfz 251 looks.

^^take a look at the wheels.

this last one is especially interesting since it shows an early-model StuG:

Now keep in mind this almost black coloring would lighten up considerably when the vehicles had been deployed to the front or used in the field. But fresh it could be really really dark.

[ July 29, 2003, 10:43 AM: Message edited by: M Hofbauer ]

[Bogdan]

Originally posted by M Hofbauer:

I posted a whole shlew of pics but this cursed board only allows 8 images per post, and the links are all lost now!

THANK YOU for such an idiot policy!

I also lost the text I added. Grrrr.

Woo, easy !

So, my mod is too or not too dark, pink, blue, black or mauve :confused: ???

[Bogdan]

So then, how can you qualify the official CMBB dark grey color used for "Panzergrau" ? Too light, too dark ?

Here is the original CMBB StuG IIIE :

Best regards.

[carlrender]

Bogdan. There is a set of 5 colour photos of Dunkelgrau panzers FROM THE RUSSIAN CAMPAIGN on the back of a book called 'German Tanks of World War Two' by George Forty. Bear in mind that the techniques for processing colour photos cannot have been that good & even nowadays you can get inaccurate colours in photos........but 4 of the photos show a dark grey very similar to the colour used by BFC (and, incidentally, by MikeyD for his Stugs and AF for his Marder). If anything this dark grey would appear to have a hint of green in it. This is confirmed by the fifth photo which is of a IVD or IVE. It is matt, quite light and a definite greenish/grey. In fact very like the colour and level of darkness chosen by BFC for their IVC, IVD, and IVE. Don't assume BFC got it wrong. I think they got it spot on! You would only get an appearance of blue on a very shiny brand new vehicle where the finish was so dark it has a bluish appearance.

You refer somewhere to a pink/mauve effect 'wink'. I suspect this is a reference to the colour chosen by panzermartin & which I did further work on. Well maybe it isn't an accurate colour (too light) but I choose mods for their in-game appearance and the level of artistic skill achieved in applying the finish. I really am not very interested in historical accuracy which I think is a blind alley in a game where there are so many compromises that reduce historical accuracy already. You may be able to criticise the colour but you cannot criticise the extremely high artistic standard panzermartin achieved in creating his mods.

Anyway - I hope you find the info I have given you from my source to be useful.

Keep up the good work!

[M Hofbauer]

Originally posted by Bogdan:

So then, how can you qualify the official CMBB dark grey color used for "Panzergrau" ? Too light, too dark ?

Here is the original CMBB StuG IIIE :

Best regards.

as regards your mod, I like the dark areas better than the "highlighted" light grey ones. Those highlighted main areas are a bit too bright *for my taste*. The darker color appeals more to me.

Btw I agree with John Kettler that overall the vehicle has a slightly blueish touch to it. But I only took issue with John Kettler's notion that it is too dark, which is where I vehemently disagree and which prompted me to post.

The original BTS / BF.C default vehicle you posted in the image above is fine with me. Maybe a bit on the "too light" side rather than the "too dark" for my tastes, and emphasis here is on "taste" because all this here is very much a matter of personal taste.

I like how the BF.C stock color is dull greyish without any blue, pink, green, whatever touch/hue.

It is all very much a matter of personal taste. We have to keep that in mind.

Anything is possible. Because the factory-fresh and almost black Dunkelgrau Nr.46 would become lighter depending on the environment and weathering, lighting conditions when picture is taken etc., to become almost medium grey.

The only thing I took wanted to comment on was John Ketteler's notion that your mod is supposedly too dark. That's where I disagreed.

yours sincerely,

M.Hofbauer

[Bogdan]

Originally posted by Limey:

Bogdan. There is a set of 5 colour photos of Dunkelgrau panzers FROM THE RUSSIAN CAMPAIGN on the back of a book called 'German Tanks of World War Two' by George Forty. Bear in mind that the techniques for processing colour photos cannot have been that good & even nowadays you can get inaccurate colours in photos........but 4 of the photos show a dark grey very similar to the colour used by BFC (and, incidentally, by MikeyD for his Stugs and AF for his Marder). If anything this dark grey would appear to have a hint of green in it. This is confirmed by the fifth photo which is of a IVD or IVE. It is matt, quite light and a definite greenish/grey. In fact very like the colour and level of darkness chosen by BFC for their IVC, IVD, and IVE. Don't assume BFC got it wrong. I think they got it spot on! You would only get an appearance of blue on a very shiny brand new vehicle where the finish was so dark it has a bluish appearance.

You're right. I've checked my G.Forty's book and will take it as a source for a second version of the mod...

You may be able to criticise the colour but you cannot criticise the extremely high artistic standard panzermartin achieved in creating his mods.

Oh, I never wanted to criticize any modders around here ! I know my english is not so accurate...

M. Hofbauer:

Those highlighted main areas are a bit too bright *for my taste*. The darker color appeals more to me.

Ok. And if I remove all the light grey areas, do you think the overall dark-blue-grey is good ? If not, I will change this main color.

Thanks for your post again : I was wondering which color would be historically accurate for this assault gun... ...you answered me !

Cheers !

[Bogdan]

Originally posted by Limey:

Well maybe it isn't an accurate colour (too light) but I choose mods for their in-game appearance and the level of artistic skill achieved in applying the finish. I really am not very interested in historical accuracy which I think is a blind alley in a game where there are so many compromises that reduce historical accuracy already.

Mmmh... I agree that CMBB or any other wargame will never be a realistic tactical simulation : it's utopic. But, keeping in mind the fact that it tries to represent reality, a good camo scheme or a nice dunkelgelb color is still a kind of "target".

Modders, scenarios designers, modellists use to approach to the nearrest the reality. We all know that a panzer on CMBB is light, I mean it is a graphical representation of a WWII vehicule, made of colored light. Like a plastic model is still made of plastic and enamels... On the other hand, a REAL panzer is made of steel and paint... This game is not reality (Fortunatelly ) but a representation. And even if it is a representation, you still could tend to have the good color, the good camo scheme.

Of course, all this depends on your personnal sensibility, your taste Someone wouldn't take care of an exact panzergrey, some other would. But IMHO, CMBB is very accurate and it is better to continue this approach of the best realistic tactical simulation by doing realistic mods and/or scenarios : accurate and near of reality.

It is why I launched a topic about a good camo scheme for the StuG IIIE : I was wondering about making a realistic mod. Because I'm not a grognard, I asked what would be the better to do. Thanks then to guys who post me something here In fact, I prefer to submit to you the stuff which is on my deskboard because I want it to be good and acceptable in game for its realistic and nice looking. There again, your feeling about my work is always very interesting. It doesn't bore me to do five times the same panzer. On the contrary, it's still a pleasure :cool:

Last, I know my english is a REPRESENTATION of my ideas (a kind of simulation )... ...since it is not my "mother language" Then, if someone felt criticized (in negative way) by me, be SURE it was not volontary

Good day folks !

[carlrender]

Ok Bogdan. Thanks for the considered reply. Everyone I guess has their own values and preferences. If I jumped to the wrong conclusions about something you said, or if I misunderstood what you said, then I do apologise.

I agree with what you say about striving for a degree of historical accuracy. And I was certainly not trying to denigrate CMBB for its lack of accuracy (it is the best game in the world and the ONLY game I play), but for me that degree of accuracy is limited - as long as a grey tank is GREY then I don't especially mind if it is dark, medium or light - has a green, mauve, pink or whatever tint. What I do care about is the skill used in applying the colour (something at which I am not very good). But again this is a personal thing. For lots of people - maybe even the majority - an accurate colour would be more important than detailed highlighting and shading. As such your striving to get the colour correct is in tune with many people's prefernces.

You should know also that I do admire your dedication to getting a single mod right by seeking and responding to feedback - something I have never done - to my discredit I am sure.

Also your English is about a million times better than my French!

[Bogdan]

Originally posted by Limey:

What I do care about is the skill used in applying the colour (something at which I am not very good).

I agree with you. Then the equilibrium is a good color with a good way of applying it ! Some masters do that... (Gautrek, Kingfisher and many others)

[Bogdan]

From missing-lynx.com :

"Painting Panzers" The Post-Shading Way

An Alternative Approach to Finishing AFV Models

by James Blackwell

German armour camouflage is another extremely controversial subject that can get people worked up into a lather very quickly. In my opinion, don't get too pedantic about matching paint chips. From studying the few existing wartime colour shots and the enormous range of variation that exists in the tones of monochrome photos, plus the variables involved in application of paint, and its weathering in the field, especially in wartime conditions, I just don't believe there is a "right" colour, especially in scale. Once a vehicle rolls out of the plant many harsh and diverse factors affect it. Sun, snow, sand, mud, field-applied finishes, heavy combat plus general wear and tear means that almost anything goes. Under these circumstances RAL colour chips are little more than helpful guidelines.

More here .

[carlrender]

Excellent find Bogdan. So, I think this kind of proves you should do what is right for YOU. Use the colours you want to see in YOUR game - if that is a dark Dunkelgrau then fine. If it is light as on your 'Tiki' Tiger then that is OK too. Another quote from the same source sums it up nicely I think.....

The two extremes in approaches when contemplating finishing a model are the "artistic" or the "realistic". In common with any visual medium, beauty is in the eye of the beholder, and what pleases one, may do little for others. So as could be expected, there are staunch supporters in both camps plus a range in between.

I definitely fall in the 'artistic' camp in that I most appreciate 'artistic' mods like those done by panzermartin and Noobie. And that is what I want to aim for in my mods. Even if I never succeed I will continue to try. But I understand and appreciate (and download & install) mods done by modders who prefer the 'realistic' approach.

As I said before.......everyone to his own. The important thing is that we all keep on producing our mods.

Cheers

[Bogdan]

Interesting quote. Then is this winter StuG IIIE realistic or artistic ?

Best regards.

[carlrender]

Jeez - I posted my reply to your other thread by accident

[M Hofbauer]

Bogdan,

since you're asking for my personal taste, well, it's just that, *my personal taste* is that I like them "the better the darker". I'ld rather have a neutral (non-blueish) grey, and dark. But again, that is just my taste, and i am pretty certain I am in the minority with that, since the long held false perception in the wargaming / modeling / pseudo-historian community is that the Panzergrau would be some kind of medium grey (which it wasn't).

Btw, I *do* like your winter StuG up there.

Keep up your commendable effort,

avec remerciments

M.Hofbauer

[gautrek]

You know what they say don't you.

You can please all the people some of the time but you can't please all the people all the time.