Wiltz: Move or stay in a breeched defensive position

[Leopard]

I am still a green CM player, but have played CMBO for about 6 months now and CMAK for a month, and have read most all of the great posts in this Forum section. I improve some each game, and come across tactics here for most every question I have.

One I have not seen as much about is the fight or flight decisions. Defending Wiltz (CMBO) for the 4th straight game, using extremely forward defenses while retaining depth, but without full flank coverage (he who defends everything defends nothing), I have become accustomed to positions being overrun. Though I have won all 3, almost every game a position will get overrun around the central hills once my anti-tank teams are spent, and the surviving German armor concentrates its firepower on my infantry on the central hill nearest the village, and on the southern hill.

I am finding that in these situations, with spotty cover behind me to aid retreat, that maintaining my positions to the bitter end on the central hill works better than withdrawl, when a smooth withdrawl to a new fire position is unlikely.

With only 20 turns to defend, once I have lost my forward infantry and anti-tank teams, I have usually committed armor to counter the German armor from rampaging against the Southern Hill where my supporting MG fire comes from, and the Central Hills where I am dug in. But these eventually get outnumbered or out-armored (damn Panther is tough to KO in this set-up!). This leaves the Germans with more firepower and much more mobile firepower.

The Southern Hill is the only area I can get reasonable LOS to the German attack routes on the central hills. Usually a no mans land develops betweeen the 3 flags, as well as between the 2 central hills. Once the German armor has cleared my anti-tank teams, all my defensive positions seem vulnerable except the Northern ones.

But the delaying action of using MG's in my 2nd defensive layer from the front instead of my 3rd or 4th has seemed to work out better. The machine guns allow me to pin infantry for my arty, and the arty can give me time to re-position as teh battle evolves.

But if MG's or anti-tank teams are running low on ammo or are in a difficult withdrawl, IMO it seems better to use them to cover infantry withdrawl, even if they are lost, rather than spend 2-4 turns with them not firing while re-postioning for a potential use later if they survive the move and then find a suitable target. I am basically giving them up for time in delaying, but it doesn't seem worth moving them when there isn't a 2/3 chance or better they will be able to fire again if I do move them.

Veterans comments on this would be appreciated.

[ June 04, 2004, 09:07 PM: Message edited by: Leopard ]

[Slappy]

I've had good success leaving the central hill across the road to the germans. I send a platoon to the North hill, one to the area just South of the ATG and one on a far loop through the woods to the South. You'll keep 2/3 flags and the germans won't be able to attack effectively across the road that you can't retreat over. I'll take you on in the CMAK version if you want to experiment.

[Leopard]

Originally posted by Slappy:

I've had good success leaving the central hill across the road to the germans. I send a platoon to the North hill, one to the area just South of the ATG and one on a far loop through the woods to the South. You'll keep 2/3 flags and the germans won't be able to attack effectively across the road that you can't retreat over. I'll take you on in the CMAK version if you want to experiment.

I have been sending full platoons to the North and South hills. I have used a split squad doing the south woods loop for recon, and once in a fortunate supressive firefight they engaging a LMG and 2 Pioneer squads for 5 turns, which is forever in a 20 turn battle as a defender. Bought em a case of beer for that one.

I had always held all 3 objective hills, though the Central one is only 2-3 turns away from complete collapse until the most recent game in which I lost the Central Hill late and the game ended in a draw, as it should have (he had a very good game with his amror).

I have been setting up 2 of my 4 MG's on the Central Hill proper, with the others in supporting positions on the other hills. I keep them in a position that his armor must expose itself to my ATG, A10 Tank Destroyer, and one Sherman to get in position to threaten my MG's.

I decided to pick a single map and try and play it a few times to improve my positioning, and Wiltz is a great map which never replays the same it seems. I have played it twice vs AI also, and am about to give it a go as the Germans for the 1st time. Got to use those APC's IMO to get infantry into defensible positions before the US can set up their fields of fire.

[Brent Pollock]

Uhhh....where is CMAK version: can't find it at the Scenario Depot, The Proving Grounds, nor Boots & Tracks :confused:

Originally posted by Slappy:

I've had good success leaving the central hill across the road to the germans. I send a platoon to the North hill, one to the area just South of the ATG and one on a far loop through the woods to the South. You'll keep 2/3 flags and the germans won't be able to attack effectively across the road that you can't retreat over. I'll take you on in the CMAK version if you want to experiment.

[JasonC]

I consider the middle hill a death trap so I don't put anybody there. Instead I make it my main kill zone. Defender locations should always have fall back routes, because you can rarely afford to sacrifice units when the attacker already has an odds edge. In a short enough game the time might be worth it. But I think live defenders are what cause more delay in the end. I aim for the kind of victory where I hold most of the objectives, smash a large part of the attacking force, and stay alive - rather than one where I barely hold all the objectives with whatever is left of my force. I find that late in the game, the side that has preserved its forces better is in practice the one that gets or keeps the accessible flags.

[simovitch]

The scenario is available on Boots & Tracks excellent website, although the scenario seems to be misspelled:

http://www.bootsandtracks.com/ScenarioDetail.php?ScenarioID=92

[Brent Pollock]

Yes, that explains why "Wiltz" didn't score on the search since it doesn't match the misspelling, "Wilitz".

Thanks.

Originally posted by simovitch:

The scenario is available on Boots & Tracks excellent website, although the scenario seems to be misspelled:

http://www.bootsandtracks.com/ScenarioDetail.php?ScenarioID=92

[Leopard]

Originally posted by JasonC:

I consider the middle hill a death trap so I don't put anybody there. Instead I make it my main kill zone. Defender locations should always have fall back routes, because you can rarely afford to sacrifice units when the attacker already has an odds edge. In a short enough game the time might be worth it. But I think live defenders are what cause more delay in the end. I aim for the kind of victory where I hold most of the objectives, smash a large part of the attacking force, and stay alive - rather than one where I barely hold all the objectives with whatever is left of my force. I find that late in the game, the side that has preserved its forces better is in practice the one that gets or keeps the accessible flags.

Thanks. You make good points, and I have read and tried to apply many of your tactics I have read here. I understand more each game about fighting withdrawls and finding defensive positions of value during the withdrwal, but at least I did realise how hopeless an organised, effective retreat from the Central Hills is once my anti-tank defenses are smashed. I don't like having that many casualties and such high attrition each way, but I couldn't see retreating with guys highly prone to break or unlikely to find a position of value thru retreat. I wanted to make my losses worth as much time as possible at that point.

My favorite fire areas as US are the Southern Hills, which have great variety of cover and elevation allowing several different LOS positions with decent cover towards the Central Hills, and they can be protected pretty well from the German armor from the village if positioned on the north-west side of the Southern Hill. But the the game my armor and forward anti-tank teams were over-run, I lost a great deal of my covering fire advantages from the Southern Hills onto the central ones.

My biggest concern with not contesting the Central Hill would be that the Stug's and the Panther would just back into the nice cover against the Central hills facing south, set up their arty, and would provide supporting fire for their infantry to advance on my positions very early, in turn 7-10 probably, which my forces would have difficulty providing counters against. They would also be able to get into great ambush positions for their anti-tank teams on the Cenrtal Hills for when I did try and deploy my armor.

Again, I am still new and probably missing several things, but think I have began to get an appreciation for terrain more by replaying the same map than playing a new one each game. Thanks for the tips!

[Slappy]

The AT gun is usaully enough to at least slow the armor advance, particularly as it is unwise for the Axis to advance the armor faster than the infantry can cover the woods on the sides of the road for fear of AT teams. Use the 105mm and long range MG fire to hold up and suppress the infantry and you can slow them up even further. This should allow you to move up the TD to find exposed flanks on at least some of the armor.

[Leopard]

I usually move the 105mm Zeus to an adjacent southern building top floor, and he seems to have a very good LOS with little exposure to the kill zones along the south-central area. I typically move the sniper into the southern hills so he can try to button up or slow some of the approaching armor. I am not sure he ever hits anyone, but I usually get a few tanks zipped up, almost always the lead 38t. I split my mortars North and South in most games, and the northern one usually attacks the central hills.

I like keeping a Sherman and the TD hunting forward towards the East, (S of Central Hill) then reversing back, on the road to the edge of the tree breaks S of Central Hill once the German armor has began to get occupied with other targets. After 2 bogged vehicles in my first game, I tend to use the road for this yo-yo-ing.

My other Sherman (Northeast of the village) I also keep mainly on the pavement, and I tend to use to get some MG's forward and save their legs on Turns 1-2, with infantry eventually setting up ahead of them. I use a lot of scouts in the North, as there seems to be enough cover for catastrophic sneak attacks from the Germans in that section. Though I doubt they would be able to bring a lot of firepower in the North, I could see Germany overwhelming my forces with numbers and several different attack positions, which I would eventually have no firepower except perhaps a hilltop MG which could put up reasonable suppressive fire there, if attacked from the north and west of the Northern Hill. While the village itself isn't likely to be overrun in 20 turns, the Northern Hill seems vital to control outright since the Central Hill is conceded, or the fight is probably lost.

I always ford the river in the south with all the southernmost units, as I cannot see a quicker or better covered route to the south hills defensive positions. I think my Northern deployment needs to be revised, while it has been quick and seemed solid before, now that I am ready to play as Germany and have reviewed it in more detail from Germanys viewpoint, I see a big potential exploit of my deployment there that needs to be fixed.

I won't be playing this as Allies again in CMBO, or I wouldn't describe it as much, but I really am beginning to like this game a lot, and want to learn more about my mistakes in planning, deployment or tactics. Thats why I have replayed the same scenario and side a few times.

[ June 08, 2004, 01:13 AM: Message edited by: Leopard ]