Armor area target problem

[Vossiewulf]

I've only seen this with T-34/76 and /85, but I'm not sure that's relevant.

Many times now I've given tanks area targets into woods or buildings, where the LOS line shows blue, the vehicle accepts the target, traverses its turret, and then does nothing at all. No MG fire, no main gun fire.

I'm PBEM testing a new scenario for Sergei, and I just had a T-34 with an area target along with a movement order do neither. It didn't fire, and it made no attempt whatsoever to follow its movement order until I canceled the area target.

I'm not talking about targets that are microinches from being out of LOS, I'm talking about targets that have LOS lines that are as light blue as they get. I can reproduce this condition with several scenarios.

Anyone else seen this or have an explanation?

[Bone_Vulture]

Screenshot, please...

[Pugilist]

Do you have friendly units anywhere nearby?

[Vossiewulf]

Yes Konstantine, I do- but I've never noticed that as a consideration before. I've seen friendly tanks happily shoot at a target that's 10m or less from friendlies. And I've seen this same exact problem in cases where there are no friendlies at all nearby.

You can't see the time very well in these screenshots, I can't figure out how to change where Photodump places their branding.

Anyway, at the beginning of the turn , we see that he has an area target near some Finns. If anyone must ask why the area rather than targeting the infantry directly, after the first shot those infantry will go to ground, the tank loses the target, and stops firing.

He also has a movement order, to reverse and then loop around the scattered trees to the right.

And at the end of the turn , you can see he's traversed his turret toward the target, but he never fired a shot, main gun or MG.

[Bone_Vulture]

The units you're targeting are in woods, right? I wager the close proximity of a frendly unit, coupled with an extremely poor LOS to the target (I assume you're targeting as deep in the forest as possible) make the tank passive.

If the friendly infantry unit in the front is under your control, try withdrawing it next. Usually when a tank traverses its gun, but refuses to fire, it's waiting for the LOF to clear.

[Vossiewulf]

That makes sense, BV, except for the numerous situations where I've had this happen where there were no friendlies anywhere in the LOF. There are a couple places on the "Road To Moscow" map where I can show you tanks with clear LOS that simply won't fire until they're moved to another location.

[Bone_Vulture]

This could be a case of extreme target cover.

Tanks become unwilling to fire if the odds for both hitting & harming the target fall low enough.

[edit]

No wait, this was a case of area fire. Ok, try moving the friendly squad away from the line of fire, and try aiming closer to the efge of the forest.

[YankeeDog]

The issue in the pictures above is definitely a blocked firing lane. In my experience, the CM TacAI appears to temporarily block firing orders if either (1) there is a friendly within a certain radius of the target point (exact radius depending on the blast of the weapon being fired), or (2) if there are friendlies along the line of fire, even if they aren't all that close to the actual target point. There are other occasions where the TacAI will countermand and Area Fire order, such as low ammo, more threatening target, etc. Very rarely, I have a unit fail to execute an Area Fire order when none of the above explainations applies, but I've never been able to pin down the reason for this. There may indeed be something about Area Fires at the extreme limits of LOS, but if so this "Area Fire Block" is unpredictable -- I can usually get guns and tanks to Area Fire right at the limit of their LOS without a problem so long as they have plenty of ammo an there's no one in the way.

I'm not sure how complex the modeling for (2) above is. For example, I don't know whether the engine will allow you to area fire with a DF weapon over the heads of a friendly unit that are at a lower elevation. I think so, but I'm not sure.

Judging from the pictures, there is a friendly unit close enough to the targetting line to trigger case (2). That unit might actually be close enough to the target point to trigger (1) as well, especially since we're talking about 85mm HE, which has a fairly large danger area. One way to test this is to give the T-34-85 another area fire order to the same spot, but make it an MG only order. Generally speaking, the TacAI is willing to fire MGs much closer to friendlies than it is large HE. It still requires a clear line of fire for MGs (case (2)), though.

Cheers,

YD

[Joachim]

I have area target problems in CMAK... a little bit of dust is enough to reduce LOS during the turn. Once there is no LOS the guns stop firing (or don't fire at all).

Is show fog/smoke on?

Maybe a smoke grenade?

Gruß

Joachim

[arax3]

My dad was a WWII combat vet. He fought in N. Africa, Italy and N. Europe. He said the same thing about the 88s from his own first person experience. Also, just sound of an MG42 (like paper tearing) was enough to halt most assaults and produce a call for air support or artillery. He was CO of an artillery battalion. A3

[Joachim]

Originally posted by arax3:

My dad was a WWII combat vet. He fought in N. Africa, Italy and N. Europe. He said the same thing about the 88s from his own first person experience. Also, just sound of an MG42 (like paper tearing) was enough to halt most assaults and produce a call for air support or artillery. He was CO of an artillery battalion. A3

I want that in CM!

If this is a reply to my sig line - it is from some report on Operation Tiger I stumbled across.

It is meant for all those who accept some veteran stories as the plain truth. Your dad's comment would fit a pattern of "those d*** infantrymen - they can't do anything on their own, always relying on us". Given the lavish use of US arty, this is true to some extent.

OTOH I guess his statements are exagerrated while still true from his perspective:

He probably heard of every assault that requested arty support. Those that did not request support were mostly unknown in the arty btn.

Any infantryman preferred to have some arty dropped and then investigate.

2 reasons for a huge bias.

Gruß

Joachim