John D. Salt - about Roy Farran and CMAK SCENARIO IDEAS CONTINUED

[Michael Dorosh]

Original "give us some ideas" thread by Wild Bill Wilder that was hijacked and locked

You mentioned in the locked "scenario thread" Roy Farran. I've met him in person; saw him at an Italian Campaign dinner back in the spring. He wrote the regimental history of my Regiment (1921-1957) and a friend of mine went to high school with his daughter.

Small world?

There was a nifty writeup in our local newspaper about him not long ago.

He was a lousy writer as far as it came to our regimental history, for various reasons I could go into...have you read his other works?

And back to the subject at hand, I suppose we could continue the CMAK scenario idea thread here?

[ October 06, 2003, 12:15 AM: Message edited by: Michael Dorosh ]

[Hans]

Michael grog question

Where and when would intense urban fighting have occurred in Sicily and Italy?

Hans

[Mr. Tittles]

Originally posted by Michael Dorosh:

Original "give us some ideas" thread by Wild Bill Wilder that was hijacked and locked

You mentioned in the locked "scenario thread" Roy Farran. I've met him in person; saw him at an Italian Campaign dinner back in the spring. He wrote the regimental history of my Regiment (1921-1957) and a friend of mine went to high school with his daughter.

Small world?

There was a nifty writeup in our local newspaper about him not long ago.

He was a lousy writer as far as it came to our regimental history, for various reasons I could go into...have you read his other works?

And back to the subject at hand, I suppose we could continue the CMAK scenario idea thread here?

I really like computer wargames for one particular reason. I don't have to meet wargamers.

I used to play squad leader/etc. I even went to SL games at 'peoples' houses/apartments/S<>tholes.

I didn't mind the crappy accomodations as much as the exposure to wierd people. It freaks me out how many wierd people like wargaming.

[ October 06, 2003, 01:10 AM: Message edited by: Mr. Tittles ]

[Berlichtingen]

Originally posted by Hans:

Where and when would intense urban fighting have occurred in Sicily and Italy?

Hans

Gonna have to wait until I get home to get the town name, but the 1st Canadian division was involved in some really nasty town fighting on Sicily. The source I have says that the fight was bad enough, but then the Canadians shot a couple of prisoners in plain sight of the Germans... it got real ugly after that

[JonS]

Berli is talking about Ortona (I think). The obvious other example is Cassino (the town, not the hill or the monastary). Others? Salerno (the town, not the beachhead), and any number of ****ty little villages/towns that the Germans didn't want to give up without a fight.

Regards

JonS

[Berlichtingen]

Originally posted by JonS:

Berli is talking about Ortona (I think).

Nope (home now). The battle I was thinking of was the Loyal Edmonton Regiment at Leonforte. I'm only into the chapter of the book I'm reading (Battle of Sicily - Mitcham & von Stauffenberg) where Patton decides to go wandering off, like an idiot, toward Palermo. So far that is the only real knock down, drag out town fighting I've seen. Mostly the Germans have been pulling out before real fighting in the streets occurs.

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by Berlichtingen:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by JonS:

Berli is talking about Ortona (I think).

Nope (home now). The battle I was thinking of was the Loyal Edmonton Regiment at Leonforte. I'm only into the chapter of the book I'm reading (Battle of Sicily - Mitcham & von Stauffenberg) where Patton decides to go wandering off, like an idiot, toward Palermo. So far that is the only real knock down, drag out town fighting I've seen. Mostly the Germans have been pulling out before real fighting in the streets occurs. </font>

[Berlichtingen]

Originally posted by Michael Dorosh:

That's an excellent book, lots of good info from the Axis side.

I am really enjoying it. THe chapter on Primosole Bridge was great. Monty comes up with a brilliant idea to drop paratroops on a bridge that is basically undefended, which they have to hold until the ground forces arrive in... one day. Stop me if you've heard this story before

Do you have a source for the shoooting of prisoners in Leonforte?

Same book. Specifically...

The fighting inside Leonforte was heavy and fluctuating. Part of the town changed hands several times before a few of the Edmontons did a foolish thing: they shot some prisoners within view of some of their Kameraden who were still fighting. "The occurancesoon became known throughout the division and heightened its determination to resist," General Rodt noted later.

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by Berlichtingen:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Michael Dorosh:

That's an excellent book, lots of good info from the Axis side.

I am really enjoying it. THe chapter on Primosole Bridge was great. Monty comes up with a brilliant idea to drop paratroops on a bridge that is basically undefended, which they have to hold until the ground forces arrive in... one day. Stop me if you've heard this story before

Do you have a source for the shoooting of prisoners in Leonforte?

Same book. Specifically...

The fighting inside Leonforte was heavy and fluctuating. Part of the town changed hands several times before a few of the Edmontons did a foolish thing: they shot some prisoners within view of some of their Kameraden who were still fighting. "The occurancesoon became known throughout the division and heightened its determination to resist," General Rodt noted later.

</font>

[Berlichtingen]

Originally posted by Michael Dorosh:

Was Primosole the bridge where British paratroops overshot and landed on the far side, and German paratroops were dropped and overshot, on the opposite side?

Let's see... not really. Two hours before the British drop, the MG Btn of 1. FD jumped in and set up to the south of the Bridge. The British jump has to be the most spectacularly screwed up jump in history... First they get shot up by allied ships. Then they get shot up by allied and axis flak. Then they get dumped out all over the place (scattered all over eastern Sicily. Of the almost 2000 paras, less than 300 made it to the bridge... where the MG Btn was. Meanwhile the ground forces were only making about 5km a day against various strongpoints. By the time the ground forces make it to the bridge, the Paras have already broken up into small groups and scampered back to friendly lines. Interesting that Frost was there as well as Arnhem

[Private Bluebottle]

Originally posted by Berlichtingen:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Michael Dorosh:

Was Primosole the bridge where British paratroops overshot and landed on the far side, and German paratroops were dropped and overshot, on the opposite side?

Let's see... not really. Two hours before the British drop, the MG Btn of 1. FD jumped in and set up to the south of the Bridge. The British jump has to be the most spectacularly screwed up jump in history... First they get shot up by allied ships. Then they get shot up by allied and axis flak. Then they get dumped out all over the place (scattered all over eastern Sicily. Of the almost 2000 paras, less than 300 made it to the bridge... where the MG Btn was. Meanwhile the ground forces were only making about 5km a day against various strongpoints. By the time the ground forces make it to the bridge, the Paras have already broken up into small groups and scampered back to friendly lines. Interesting that Frost was there as well as Arnhem </font>

[Derfel]

Before this degenerates... er... changes into a discussion on various Para units performance in WWII... COULD WE PLEASE GET BACK TO THE SUBJECT MATTER!?

...ahem.. sorry... meds acting up...

Anyway, I had a similar idea to Dorsosh and have even made a small tentative start in collecting ideas for CMAK scenarios.

Byte Battler Afrika Korps

So far it's just a bit of theft from others but I would be happy to host a few pages with ideas, if people felt like contributing.

Further thoughts?

-Derfel

[John D Salt]

Apologies for the delay in replying -- I am currently living out of a suitcase during the week, and can only read my e-mail at the weekends. Once I have finished moving house to South Wales, things should go more smoothly, but as this would require conveyancing solicitors to get a bit of a wiggle on I doubt it will happen soon.

Originally posted by Michael Dorosh:

[snips]

You mentioned in the locked "scenario thread" Roy Farran. I've met him in person; saw him at an Italian Campaign dinner back in the spring. [snips]

He was a lousy writer as far as it came to our regimental history, for various reasons I could go into...

Woo, impressive!

So, dish the dirt, what's he like, and why can't he write? Come to that, what's he doing in Canada?

Originally posted by Michael Dorosh:

have you read his other works?

Nope, only "Winged Dagger". I am quite sure the edition I have (the Cassell Military Classics edition) has been abridged, as I could have sworn that the edition I read at achool years ago included a period spent in Palestine after WW2. IIRC Farran was accused of "anti-semitism", whether on the grounds of this book or something else I don't know. If anyone can shed any light on the matter I'd like to know if my recollection is accurate or hogwash.

Originally posted by Michael Dorosh:

And back to the subject at hand, I suppose we could continue the CMAK scenario idea thread here?

I think some of the material in "Winged Dagger" might make a good basis for CMAK scenarios, and might even be adequately doable in CMBB. There are sketch maps of e.g. the attack on the Villa Calvi and operations in Tombola valley, and orbat information that is more detailed than one can usually find. The scale of operations seems small enough to make a CM-size fight without excessive editing, too. As an example orbat, page 312 of the Cassell Military Classics edition gives the organisation of the Battaglione McGinty (otherwise the Battaglione Alleata) as at 7th April 1945 follows:

SUNCOL (V. Modena, K. Nurk)

Strength 5 British, 100 Russians, 6 mules.

Armament 1 75mm pack howitzer ("Molto Stanco"), 1 3-in mor, 2 60mm mors, 1 Browning 0.5 HMG, 15 Bren LMGs.

MOONCOL (Maj. Farran, Capt. Eyston)

Strength 25 british, 30 Garibaldini, 6 mules.

Armament 1 3-in mor, 2 60mm mors, 2 Vickers MMGs, 10 Bren LMGs.

STARCOL (Lt. Tysoe, Tito)

Strength 5 British, 60 Italians, 6 mules.

Armament 1 3-in mor, 2 2-in mors, 1 Browning 0.5 HMG, 15 Bren LMGs.

ECLIPSECOL (Lt. Eyton-Jones)

Strength 10 British with 4 jeeps.

Armament 4 twin Vickers "K" guns.

A pretty powerful little force, I think, certainly not short of automatic firepower for its size.

All the best,

John.

[Agua]

Hans,

I believe the Rangers' landing at Gela, Sicily, were supposed to be pretty hot.