German tanks going stupid

[willbell]

I searched, but found no results for, German tanks getting stupid. Am I the only one with this problem?

I have one tank that took one shot at a location I pointed to, but has been moving in front of infantry but not firing. Another is acting similarly.

Another tank is set up real nice, looking into a cul de sac full of stuff. It took out the two MG bunkers without being prompted, but on the next turn just sat there watching a little armored car frantically trying to escape (kind of funny actually, unless it starts firing on my infantry which is moving up on the assumption the tank would take it out). There are also five or six MGs it could be taking out, not to mention infantry, but it's just sitting there.

The hatches are closed on both and they are not shocked (just a little dim).

Any suggestions?

[GJK]

Could be a lot of things, or a few things I guess....how much ammo does it have left and of what type? What kind of covered arcs are set, if any? Are the contacts solid contacts (i.e., not just sound)? What's the crews experience? Did you manually target any of those contacts or just left it up to the AI? Someone else will have others I'm sure....

[Sergei]

As it's buttoned up, it takes longer to acquire targets. Opening up helps, as well as makes gunnery more accurate.

[willbell]

GJK,

All good questions, but moot in this instance. Except for one point. I assigned one MG bunker the previous turn, and in that turn he moved on to the next bunker, then hit some infantry. On the current turn I assigned no targets. Did the assignment on the previous turn effect this one? Hmmmm.

Sergei,

Good point, although everything is in clear view and not far away. It seems like buttoned up Shermans perform better.

As for unbuttoning, well my friend, as perfect a little shooting gallery as I have found myself in, the tank is surrounded by angry little MGs in clear view in top stories. Everything can't be perfect. This might be one of the rare times when I use infantry fire suppression in support of a tank. Or should I use patience and reduce the MGs one at a time?

[Bone_Vulture]

Wait a sec; willbell, what model are your tanks exactly? I am unclear of their MG capacity and gun caliber.

[willbell]

StugE. Don't recall the caliber (blast is 45), and no MGs on it. Have to admit the lack of MGs surprised me.

This turn I targeted the armored car, which recieved four or five rounds. Guess it's condition.

It seems to be ponderously searching for the next enemy MG, I'll help it. I am now begining to recall a thread similar to this.

I think it's definitely a problem with sight while buttoned. I just have to use it as it is.

There was a T-34 that sat and watched for a couple of moves (the Stug has a building on it's flank) and then dissapeared. Guess it thought there wasn't much it could do.

[Bone_Vulture]

Ok, this clears things up a bit. It's been a while since I've played CM:BB, but if I interpreted the Excel charts correctly, the StugIIIE model does not have a cupola.

This fact alone makes the tank very passive and sluggish to acquire new targets on its own accord, if it becomes buttoned. And since the vehicle lacks an MG, it's effectiveness against mobile infantry squads is questionable. I suggest that you focus the HE shells against enemy vehicles, slow moving soft units (field artillery / mortars / MG's), or static fortifications, like the mentioned bunkers, or targets located in foxholes / trenches.

You might want to "lock down" a specific (static) target by giving your tank a very narrow cover arc around it. This way it will not attempt to acquire new targets, but will concentrate on this one target. You can also use a cover arc to force area fire near a visible target (in a situation where the target keeps appearing and disappearing, and targeting the unit directly would lead to your tank losing track of it swiftly).

[Jack Carr]

You probably didn't notice that your panzer was commanded by the infamous Herr Friedrich Von Dingeldorf, notorious village idiot of Dumkopf Strasse in Germering. Whenever I fire up a scenario and see this guy sitting in the top hatch of one of my panzers I just end the game and start over.

Uhhh...just kidding...

[Bone_Vulture]

Originally posted by Jack Carr:

Uhhh...just kidding...

Back to the "Peng" thread with you! :mad:

[YankeeDog]

Even with cupolas, in my experience buttoned AFVs are very slow to acquire and fire on enemy targets, even if the targets are in front of them and pretty visible. If the AFV doesn't have a cupola, things get even slower.

I'm just guessing, but I think this was a feature BFC put into CMBB to compensate a bit for borg spotting. In CMBO, buttoned AFVs would respond very quickly to newly spotted enemy units, which is probably not realistic.

You can still manually order the AFV to target enemy units within LOS, though. I guess this is supposed to represent radio communications from a higher commander giving the AFV crew the specific location of a target.

So you've got a choice, you can either unbutton your StuG, which will dramatically improve target acquisition but also put the TC at risk from small arms fire, or you can leave it buttoned and deal with having to target enemy units manually. Be warned that manual targeting does have drawbacks -- If a juicier target shows up, the StuG probably won't switch targets, and it will also be a bit slower to respond to a threat to itself, such as an enemy tank or close assaulting infantry.

Another contributing factor with your StuG may be ammo load. One of the real weaknesses of the StuG is it's rather limited ammo load. They don't have a huge ammo load to start with, and particularly the short-barrel varieties have many different types of ammo, which reduces the number of shells they carry of any one type -you can have one StuG carrying HE, AP, HEAT, Canister, and Smoke. As a result a StuG often starts a battle with only 15-25 HE shells. That's enough for only 3-5 turns worth of firing. Furthermore, the TacAI will begin to get really stingy with HE shells once it has only 6 or so left. It will save these last HE shells for targets threatening its own safety, like AT guns or infantry that's getting too close. So you've really only got 3-4 turns of "free fire" HE from a StuG. After that, it will take a direct threat, or specific player orders to get a StuG to use up those last few HE shells.

Ironically, in CM the small ammo load and lack of MGs (or single MG with limited ammo in late models) on StuGs makes them less effective in the role they were originally designed for - infantry support. IRL, the small ammo load may have been less of a liability in many situations. Infantry attacks tend to be pretty slow-moving affairs when compared with Armored or Mechanized force actions, and the StuGs could proabably fire off one ammo load, pull back to restock their ammo stores, and then roll forward to engage the enemy again. This isn't presently an option in CM, and for shorter scenarios (30 turns or less), it's probably irrelevant since it's going to take at least 10-15 turns for the StuG to drive back to the ammo resupply point, restock, and then roll forward again. For scenarios above 40 turns or so, though, it would be nice to model ammo replenishment.

Cheers,

YD

Cheers,

YD

[willbell]

Yep, no cupola and small ammo load.

But, with direction, it has now knocked out all the big stuff and is working over the MGs one at a time. And now I have pulled up some more equipment, and seeing as that Stug has kept the T-34 at bay by it's mere presence, we are ready to rock n roll.

Thanks for all the info, I am now more prepared to use all this German equipment in the future.

[Bone_Vulture]

Originally posted by willbell:

Thanks for all the info, I am now more prepared to use all this German equipment in the future.

Glad to hear that. Sadly, I don't remember the link to CM:BB vehicle charts, but you'll probably find it.

In the future, pay attention to whether your tanks have cupolas or MG's. Those are very important factors.

[Redwolf]

The range of vision drops when a CM AFV buttons up. That is even if it previously shot at the location when open - the same location might be out of vision range after buttoning up and not be fired upon.

[willbell]

Update:

This problem turned interesting. The Stug had to be redirected each turn, which took time. It was shooting to the East, and from the North came not one, but two T-34s which were restricted to the road they were moving down. In the road was a building and the Stug moved so it was between him and the T-34s. He just sat there banging away. Further South down the road I had a tank hidden with a keyhole view of the corner of the building. The T-34s must have thought the Stug was unaware of their presence so they just drove around the corner to blast it in the rear... right into the sights of the other tank. It was pretty cool.