The real way CM should be played!!

[Steiner14]

Inspired by another thread, i just started playing my first battle against the AI without using level 3 and the upward 'god-views'. Extremely sceptically i gave it a serious try over 10 turns and i'm totally amazed!

I really recommend to play that way to everyone!

Give it a try and stick 10 minutes with it.

The gaming-experience is much much much more intense and the AI suddenly becomes a tough oponent.

I'm really caught by the whole new dimension of realism and excitement that suddenly shows up, if only view level 1 is used.

It is very important to keep playing that way, when the first frustration in the battle comes up!

Don't avoid the frustration by using the god-view!

Simply keep playing and make the best out of the situation.

[ September 15, 2003, 02:18 PM: Message edited by: Steiner14 ]

[86smopuim]

try out all of Franko's true combat rules

Its very fun. Makes plying the AI actually enjoayble and challenging.

And hey, if u want to PBEM using these rules, email me, smope _at_ ponyshow.com

FRANKO'S TRUE COMBAT RULES

SELECTING UNITS

Use "+" or "-" keys to move from friendly unit to friendly unit. Then, use the "tab" key. You can then only rotate in place to scan the surrounding terrain.

If there is friendly unit within the line of sight (LOS) of the unit you have currently selected, you do not have to use the + and - keys. Instead, you can simply point and click on that target unit, THEN hit the tab key. Any other way of accessing an enemy unit is forbidden.

PANNING

After accessing the unit and hitting the tab key(which orients the view of the unit forward), you can only "look around" by using the pivot keys (1,3,7,9) on the keypad. BUILDINGS If a unit icon (such as vehicle), blocks your view, you can use the "8" key to click ahead only such distance which is necessary to clear the sprite. ELEVATED VIEWS

Once turns begin (after setup), you may use only the lowest-level view ("1" on the keyboard), unless the following apply:

A. If your unit occupies are a two-level building, you may use View 2

B. If you are on the top floor of a church, you can use View 2 or View 3, whichever you prefer

ENEMY UNITS You may not "click on" or "select" an enemy unit. Use the "N" key to select targets.

ZOOM KEYS

You may not use the "zoom key" (the brackets), unless:

A. You may use up to Zoom 2x if you're unit you are "looking from" is platoon leader or above.

B. Your unit may use up to Zoom 4x if it has optics (e.g, an artillery observer, an AT gun, a tank). Buttoned tanks or tanks that suffered casualties can only use up to zoom 4x in the direction of their turret facing, because, that's where the gunners optics are facing! American tanks may not be able to zoom at all.

WEATHER

You must always have weather and fog set to "Extreme" SPECIAL SETUP RULES

The following setup rules apply depending on whether you are the attacker, defender, or if the battle is a meeting engagement.

Attacker: During setup you may use View Level 7 to aid in setup, in addition to the views you are permitted in Rules 1, 2, or 3, above. This "attacker's map" rule represents the "map" your troop commander would use to help prepare your troops for the assault.

Defender: During setup you can use the map rule, above, if your signal corps has its act together. In addition, you can freely move about the map in level 1, or view level 2 (or 3, if a church) if that part of the map your viewing from is a multi-level building

Meeting Engagements: Both sides may only view using the Attacker's map rule, or from any spot in their setup zone (only). Again, if a spot in their setup zone has a church or building, adjust accordingly.

OPTIONAL RULE During setup you may print out a map (by taking a screen shot and printing the .bmp file) for use during the battle. This map should be at the minimum View Level 7. GAME SETTINGS Use only "Realistic" Sized units. Always have "full terrain" on. Turn unit bases and detailed armored hits "off". Generally speaking, use only those feature that the troops could use. Needless to say, Fog of War is ALWAYS set to FULL!

[Steiner14]

Thanks for the offer 86smopuim, but first i have to practice a bit and the true combat rules seem a bit hard for me, 'cause at the moment i'm learning not to lose orientation even with moving on the map.

It's all new and exciting to me and i have to learn a lot first.

Today i ordered a Geforce and the Radeon will fly out of the computer!

Can't wait to play that rules with fog!

Feel free to contact me in two weeks, if you still want to play then.

Steiner

[Steiner14]

Oh, the zoom, the zoom! Brilliant.

Never needed it before.

I want to use above mentioned Franco's TCR, but what's not totally clear to me, is the zoom function:

what are the correct zoom-factors for the tanks, with their different optics?

[86smopuim]

Originally posted by Steiner14:

Oh, the zoom, the zoom! Brilliant.

Never needed it before.

I want to use above mentioned Franco's TCR, but what's not totally clear to me, is the zoom function:

what are the correct zoom-factors for the tanks, with their different optics?

Hmm, good quesiton.

The above information was written for CMBO.

Lets make 'em up for CMBB...

I am no grog, so this may be bad info

Any tank can have no zoom or x2 zoom in 360 degees, if unbuttoned. This represents the Tank Commander/ hand held Binoculars.

In addition, there are these optics, that can be used in the direction of turret/hull facing.

No optics listed: Zoom X2

Good or Narrow: Zoom x 4

Long Range Zoom x 8

Binocular Optics: Zoom x 4 or zoom x 2(yeah, I know bincuclar means something else, but it had to have some benfit)

Dual Magnification: Zoom x 8 or zoom x 4

Very Long Range Zoom x 16

[ September 15, 2003, 06:49 PM: Message edited by: 86smopuim ]

[86smopuim]

Originally posted by Steiner14:

Thanks for the offer 86smopuim, but first i have to practice a bit and the true combat rules seem a bit hard for me, 'cause at the moment i'm learning not to lose orientation even with moving on the map.

Hey, I am crap at it too,that's what makes it so fun!

I think 500 poiunts maximum for units or it would eb totally bewildering.

[86smopuim]

duh! i am dumb

[ September 15, 2003, 09:44 PM: Message edited by: 86smopuim ]

[Steiner14]

Originally posted by 86smopuim:

Any tank can have no zoom or x2 zoom in 360 degees, if unbuttoned. This represents the Tank Commander/ hand held Binoculars.

Although 2x seems to low for handhelds to me (hey, even i own a 7x50), i makes total sense for gameplay.

I use 2x zoom only for units with handheld binoculars, too. But except tanks:

In addition, there are these optics, that can be used in the direction of turret/hull facing.

Here we have a dissence:

although it's unrealistically, i really love to use the right zoom factor even when looking around with the tank commander.

CM doesn't allow rotating the turret for searching the horizon.

So i'd like to use the correct zoom factor not only in the turrets direction.

It could be also understood a bit of compensation, that the game on the monitor is only 2D, and not 3d like in reality.

I also won't miss anymore to move with the tank and look through the zoom, slowly rotating the view and watch with a shaking camera how the infantry advances.

Feels like being within the action. :eek:

Would that be ok for you?

[ September 16, 2003, 07:09 AM: Message edited by: Steiner14 ]

[Hans]

Several of the 'Small battles' series of scenarios were specifically designed to be fought at levels one and two.

They are

Bidermann gun

Objective

of Cats and Men

Cossacks, Alarm

and the pre-small battles scenario

Sons of a hero

All can be fought from the German side as level 1 or 2

Objective, cats and son of a hero can also be fought from the Soviet side.

[Noiseman]

This seems a good thread to plug the idea of having the option of making enemy units invisible at view level three and higher. One can still orient one's own units on the higher level views of the map, but any combat type orders would end up having to take place from the first person perspective.

This is a very simple way to get one into playable action without a lot of rules (and temptations to peek). It strikes me as being the best of both worlds.

[Steiner14]

Noiseman,

i second that, i second that!

I would like to see more options:

like forbiding moving around the map, or zoom-restictions when locked on several units, or only being able to use level 2 or three, when locked on a unit that is located in a building/church.

All this optional, ofcourse.

That would be marvelous, if CMAK would include a TRUE COMBAT MODE.

[Noiseman]

I've just tried this method playing the AI, it pretty much simulates the idea I've been suggesting.

Set scale to realistic for the entire game. Show all movement paths are on (shift-P), but show all target lines are off. Unit bases can be on or off.

Press shift-Q (Turn play aids off) before viewing at levels 3 or higher. This will hide all 'icon' enemy units at high view levels. Well-spotted units will be seen at level three and above, but this is entirely reasonable (After all they are in plain sight). Enemy infantry and guns will be tough to see because bases aren't shown with shift-Q activated, but this is also reasonable. Discretion with zooms and forward panning will recreate a very extreme FOW.

At views 1&2 play aids (shift-Q) can be used, as well as target lines (shift-P) and bases(shift-.

If anything, this is better than my original idea. One primarily views the battle from 'down low' but can remain oriented to the larger picture (Remember, all friendly movement paths can still be seen at high levels, and long distance moves can be plotted there too). Well-spotted units are easily accounted for, but but micromanaging like a god against vague units is minimized. The AI becomes much more formidable.

I never cease to be amazed by the depth of CM and BFC. Everything I could want is usually already in the game, I'm just too dumb to spot it right away.

[ September 16, 2003, 08:42 PM: Message edited by: Noiseman ]

[Stoffel]

Steiner,

If you are afraid of losing the overview,than you should make a screenshot of the map and the positions of your units from the setup and print it.

Than mark their path or their new position on that map after each turn.

That way you can also mark enemy positions,somehow like we use to do in the early days of Tacops exercises.

[86smopuim]

I played Franko's True Combat rules last night versus the AI, at +25% forces for the AI.

Armor vs Armor Setting, ME, 500 points, huge map(a must for less than 1000 pt battles)

I actually won a draw, but _just barely_.

( normally I can spank the AI with +100-200% forces )

The Armor battle was _intense_. Total Immersion.

Wish I had some pretty mods now.

It really made me concerned about losing the Tank Commandeer. I kept those tanks buttoned most the time, for fear of losing my 360 degree x2 view.

All the while of playing I was taking mental notes on updating the rules for CMBB. Will be posting ideas here tomorrow/tonight.

Keep the suggestions coming....

[ September 17, 2003, 03:33 AM: Message edited by: 86smopuim ]

[86smopuim]

draft rules found here

http://www.battlefront.com/cgi-bin/bbs/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=23;t=008607

[Steiner14]

Today i found some time, to continue with my first TCR-battle and was surprised once again:

until now, i always became annoyed, when i saw the AI storming against MG positions, knowing from GOD's view, they are without any chance.

With TCRs things look completely different!

Within the trenches and much less knowledge, how many enemy squads are still to come, you don't know what will happen and pray the position will hold.

It's much less predictive!

Highly recommended.