Killed two KV-1s in one mission...here's how.

[RSColonel_131st]

Hey, not to bad if I may say so myself. I had 4 Panzer IIIL, a StuGII F/8 and a Marder. (BTW, is it me or does the Marder use a russian gun???)

We were advancing on the right side objectives when from the left flank we got fired at by a T-34 and a KV-1 ranged somewhat around 500 meters, perhabs more. Looked quite evil, really.

What saved the day was our 81mm FO who laid down a smoke screen and gave our tanks a chance to rush the KV-1 with his T-34 Friend. The monster still took out a few of our tanks, but the StuG finished him off nicely at 155 meters when it crossed our smoke screen.

Actually, I was able to repeat the very same thing a second time in this mission, with a 105mm FO. I'd say killing two KV-1's and a T-34 at the cost of two Panzer IIIL's and a Marder is quite a decent payoff.

Okay, this may now work against a human player, for he would most likely extend away from the smoke screen to keep his range advantage. But it sure worked against the AI.

[JasonC]

There are many types of Marder. Some used a captured Russian 76L51 gun, rechambered for German ammo.

Marders and StuG F/8s can both kill KVs at range. They don't need to sneak up to point blank. 80mm front StuGs can kill them beyond range of reply, and therefore dominate them.

IIILs are heavily enough armored that most Russian shots will bounce at range, provided you maintain front facing. The Russians start getting partial pens around 500m or so, occasionally a bit beyond that if they get a particularly "flat" hit. In return, the 50L60 can penetrate the turret front of a T-34 - but not a KV - at around 500m with plain AP, and out to more like 900m with tungsten rounds. They will also kill T-34s from the sides.

Against a KV with just IIILs, you can win by using "hail fire" if you have numbers. Just stay far enough away that the Russian shots bounce - 800m will serve - and maintain front facing. High ROF and an accurate gun plus many shooters will then rack up the hits. They don't need to penetrate. If you get 20 or 30 of them on a single tank, you will immobilize it or get gun damage or both.

With the combo you had, it is easy. The long 75s should use "shoot and scoot" to take single shots from behind a crestline. (Assuming the StuG was 50mm front variety - if it was 80mm it could just stand up and kill them). The IIILs stand in the open and draw fire, using "hail" themselves. (Start with the T-34 if there is one, though. You might kill it with your initial shots, which will include tungsten rounds, which go through the turret front at medium range).

You do need enough range to be safe, which means you want to be farther than the 500-600m you said you started at. Can't always get that on a small or hilly or heavily wooded map.

KVs are tough to take out in 1941. That can remain true in 1942 if you have common forms of equipment, unimproved since 1941 (e.g. IIIJs short with 50mm fronts, IVF shorts, short StuGs, Pz38ts). But with the best 1942 equipment, like what you had, they aren't hard.

[RSColonel_131st]

Thanks for the reply.

Actually you may be correct about StuGs just standing up to the KV at range, but I dont think I had that range. No crestline either to hide behind. We had all units pretty much in plain sight of the KV's and T-34, woods behind our backs, and certainly below 800 meters range...with the KV closing in. May have been 500 to 600 meters a few minutes into the battle, and that was too close for comfort.

OTOH, thanks for explaining that the StuG could kill the KV at range. I never checked the numbers, but pretty much just assumed that the KV was not to be penetrated (I've heard too many storys about KV's being unpassable obstactles for whole companys I guess). Kind of a KV-Fear, if you'll want to call it that.

Next time I'll fear them a little less.

[JasonC]

A few corrections after looking at the types you specified, instead of going by memory. The F-8 model StuG is 30+50mm front with a long 75. It will bounce the Russian 76mm shots down to point blank range. It is basically invulnerable from the front. It's own gun will kill either T-34s or KVs out to 1000m, easily.

The Marder will also kill them but can't withstand their replies, so it needs to use "shoot and scoot", preferably while another AFV distracts its target.

The Pz III Ls can use hail fire as I said, but you want to do it from hull down positions. Because the lower front hull is only 50mm, which is vulnerable to Russian 76mm out to medium range. As long as you are hull down they can't hit this plate, and you can stand there trading shots with them. But if the lower hull is exposed, you better be able to penetrate them somewhere (e.g. have tungsten, or be under 500m from a T-34 rather than a KV). Otherwise they will get you before you get them.

[RSColonel_131st]

Oooookay....I'm kinda catching up on this.

Seems like I got my KV's confused. I must have been thinking about the KV-2 Monster with the 152mm gun, and that's why I was totally scared of that thing. Yeah, I could have checked up it's unit info, but I was so certain that it would be an evil monster...

Is that 76,2 mm gun actually the weak one I seem to remember being used as PAK too?

Okay, need to remember that, anyway. KV-1's are not as evil as KV-2's. I was kinda afraid of the whole family.

[Mad Russian]

Originally posted by RSColonel_131st:

Oooookay....I'm kinda catching up on this.

Seems like I got my KV's confused. I must have been thinking about the KV-2 Monster with the 152mm gun, and that's why I was totally scared of that thing. Yeah, I could have checked up it's unit info, but I was so certain that it would be an evil monster...

Is that 76,2 mm gun actually the weak one I seem to remember being used as PAK too?

Okay, need to remember that, anyway. KV-1's are not as evil as KV-2's. I was kinda afraid of the whole family.

I just had a Stug kill a KV-2 so that can be done too!!

Panther Commander

[JasonC]

It isn't the 2 vs the 1 that matters. It is what year it is, and the kind of equipment the Germans have because of that. With 1943 equipment, or the best 1942 equipment, KVs are no great shakes. With 1941 equipment, or vanilla rather than cherry-picked best 1942 equipment, they are monsters.

If your Pz IIIs have 50L42 guns instead of 50L60, at best 30+30mm armor (Hs) or 50mm (short Js, early), your StuGs had only 50mm armor and 75L24 guns (Bs and Es), your Marders were instead 47mm JagdPz Is - then you would be right to be terrified of KVs. Once you've got StuGs with long 75 guns and 80mm front armor, they get to be terrified of you.

[Joachim]

A nice little trick I found is using IIIj (late) or IIIL at 700m+ as shield while hammers with eggshells do the killing.

Engage with PzIII at range late in Turn X. If the other player accepts the challenge, move up the hammers early in turn X+1 - but behind the PzIII screen. The TacAI will continue targetting the PzIII. The hammers get off several shots.

Make sure you get little return fire in turn X+2:

a) Overkill

drop smoke late in turn X+1

c) use hammers with short command delay and immediately retreat if necessary.

Cancelling the target orders by the other player might ruin the party, as the TacAI is less eager to override human targetting orders than its own.

Using 80mm StuGs as shield might not work due to enemy tanks taking cover.

Present the enemy with a fair chance in turn X - or he won't take the challenge.

Gruß

Joachim