Testing ATRs

[JasonC]

I decided to get a better handle on what ATRs can do, and in particular to see whether it is worth shooting at targets with kill chances of "none" with them, going for gun damage or track hits.

I set up a testbed with 20 Russian ATRs in woods at one end, 1500 rounds to play with. Overall I fired off 6000 rounds of ATR ammo for the tests. At the other end I put various German vehicles and tracked what I could do to them.

My basic conclusion is that ATRs are useful against light armor, but against anything serious they are pretty much a waste. Yes you can shoot to button things up. But your chances of actual damage are tiny, unless you have a short flat shot at a relatively vulnerable plate.

I first put the whole lot on a single Pz IV G late model with skirts. Hit it with 1500 rounds fired. I counted 2 partial pens when a side was turned and I rolled particularly high, 12 gun hits, and 35 track hits. Sounds promising. But no damage resulted. Not a bit.

Next I turned them loose on various kinds of light armor. The basic story is if they can get through all the plates they killed it rapidly. If they can get through any plate they will kill it, but it can take a while, meaning many shots. Particulars (understand that "a minute" implies around 110 shots, or 1.5 full ATR ammo loads. But there is some death clock delay too) -

SPWs lasted less than a minute. That means roughly 100 rounds fired.

PSW 222s, 5-8mm, were knocked out very rapidly - might be an outlier, but it was less than 10 seconds in my test.

PSW 232s with 30mm front lasted considerably longer. It is the sides that are vulnerable. They are thin enough that even high side angle leaves them penetrable. But it took 15 penetrations to knock one out, which it took a minute and change to get, even facing half side.

Nashorn went down in a minute and 12 seconds. A Grille lasted 2 1/2 minutes, corresponding to 250-300 rounds fired. That range reflects only one plate was vulnerable (lower hull thick, upper thin).

Hummels, Wespes, and Marder IIs are a similar story. The Marder IIs are thin side and modest front, but the front is enough against mere ATRs at range. They still died in my tests, due to side exposure to some shooters. Marder III late die easily.

The Marder III early (76) and plain Marder III - with 50mm fronts - will only die if they show their sides. I have one last 6 minutes, 3 of them under the full 20 and the other 3 with only portions firing, turned half side. Every front hit bounced and many of the side ones happened to, due to side angle. Some got in but it took a lot of them to kill. These Marders models are considerably tougher than all the other German light armor. Worth remembering, and not just vs. ATRs. (50mm fronts work against 45mm too - won't stop 76mm though).

A Pz II C eventually died from side penetrations, but it lasted about 2 minutes.

Then I tried a thicker set, but nothing "uber". 50mm front vehicles and the like - a Pz IVF, a StuG F, an early model III J, a Somua, and a Renault. Didn't use the better 1941 Czechs but they are also 50mm front (25+25) and I would expect them to work the same way.

The story here is that the ATRs just couldn't hurt them. I fired 20 vs 1, just the ones with side shots, 4 at each, many combinations. All 1500 rounds expended, not a single immobilization or gun damage, let alone a kill.

So overall, 3000 rounds fired at real medium tanks did not get a single damage result. Less than 3000 fired at light armor killed a dozen light vehicles.

I've killed Pz IIIs with ATRs in games, when the range is short - under 300m - and the angle is a flat side shot. The kill chance can read anything from "low" at the high end to "rare". Those shots are worth taking. But the "none" shots, the 500m shots, the hoping for gun damage shots at real medium tanks or better, they aren't worth it.

If you even want to kill significant numbers of light armored vehicles, you need 4 to 8 ATRs expending every round. That many shots will keep the thin stuff honest about keyholing and avoiding showing their sides, or KO them. More they are not likely to do.

For what it is worth.

[ March 13, 2004, 04:07 AM: Message edited by: JasonC ]

[BigDork]

Thanks for that JasonC. As always, very informative.

[Trommelfeuer]

Jawoll, this is very nice stuff, thanks a lot for your article!

Regards, Sven

[Bone_Vulture]

JasonC, I want the bear your children!

[John Kettler]

JasonC,

That may be how things are in the game, but a Tiger I company was rendered almost nonfunctional by ATR fire during Kursk. Basically, the vision blocks in the cupola were shot up so badly by deliberate fire that the TCs couldn't see out to fight their tanks buttoned, exactly as shown in the Russian ATR training instructions. Worse, several TCs sustained eye injuries, putting them out of commission for a few days, and one had to leave the unit for weeks after having the vision block and bracket torn out by an ATR shot and smashed into his face. So extensive was the damage to vision blocks that the company supply of spares was used up, ditto battalion. Effectively, all combat operations ceased until new blocks could be obtained from regiment. Thirteen tanks were hors de combat from ATR fire.

The source for this was a Tiger company AAR I found on the Web back in my Panzer Elite days. I printed it out but failed to bookmark it. As an ubergrog, though, I believe you ought to be able to find it again. There weren't many Tiger companies at Kursk after all, and I suspect you have/can get the requisite Tiger I combat references.

Regards,

John Kettler

[Bone_Vulture]

AT rifles were accurate enough to hit cupolas? Any mention of the range of engagement?

[John Kettler]

Bone Vulture,

According to "Destroy Fascist Tanks" here

http://www.battlefield.ru/library/bookshelf/weapons/weapons9.html (couldn't get the other way to work) the sure hit range is 50-100 meters. Considering that the heavy German armor was

basically rammed through deep, successive defensive belts at Kursk, it could've been even less. At least some of the antitank platoons were sited on ground where the tanks couldn't go and shot up everything which came close and passed to either side. Martin Caidin's THE TIGERS ARE BURNING has a great shot of part of one such platoon. According to the caption, Lieutenant F. Loginov's unit destroyed three medium tanks, two antitank guns, three MGs and left 25 Germans (officers and men) dead.

Regards,

John Kettler

[mrpwase]

Ha! You'll laugh at me for this, but in the interests of gameplay 'Call of Duty' sacrificed all reality in order to make ATRs as powerful as killing a Tiger I with 5 hits on its front armour.

Fun game though...although I was pissed off that the only tanks are Tigers and the occasional SPW.

Anyway...back to CM...nice, thanks for that JC.