Tactics - Historical Accuracy vs. Fun

[Squad Leader]

Hi all,

First, a quick thank you to all for the wonderful welcome I've received since joining up, not to mention the help I'm getting from some very experienced tutors via PBEM.

Anyway, I'll put on my historian's hat for a minute.

One of the things I enjoy about CMBB is that the designers have attempted to mimic historical tactics quite well in the Tac-AI, as well as in the available moves. Thus, to give the most obvious example, you have the 'Human Wave' technique available to the new Sov recruits, but not to anyone else.

Last night, I spent some time playing the excellent scenario design 'Ghetto Uprising', which takes place in the Warsaw Ghetto during its final days in 1943. First, thanks very much for designing this -- what a great opportunity!

However, here's the big question -- when playing this scenario, do people try and make things as historically accurate as possible? When I first played it, I found I had partisan snipers, one of whom managed to frag a German armored car commander with one shot at 400 yards. Wonderful, eh? But, sadly, the Jewish fighters in the Ghetto had neither the weaponry nor the training to do such things. When the Ghetto was wiped out, most of the casualties to the Germans came from close-range fire, grenades, and the Molotov Cocktail.

I played through again, purposely not using my snipers until close range, and, unsurprisingly, was crushed.

So ... historical accuracy, or fun? That is the question.

(On a side note, German techniques in Warsaw generally consisted of 1) exposed infantry/SS entering the ghetto and receiving heavy casualties, and 2) in phase 2, operating only under the shelter of heavy armored cars. The tac-AI does a nice job of representing this when it plays the Germans.

Hope this is the right place for my first lengthy historical post!

Squad Leader

[Panzertruppen]

You may also find this of interest:

http://www.warfarehq.com/page_left_column.php?content=article_disp&p=176&page=1&cat=1

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by Squad Leader:

Hope this is the right place for my first lengthy historical post!

Squad Leader

:confused:

My scroll bar moved, like, 3 pixels. Suggest you do a search on "JasonC" and try again.

[rune]

Actually they did have a very few snipers. From the United States Holocaust Museum:

In January 1943, Warsaw ghetto fighters fired upon German troops as they tried to round up another group of ghetto inhabitants for deportation. Fighters used a small supply of weapons that had been smuggled into the ghetto. After a few days, the troops retreated. This small victory inspired the ghetto fighters to prepare for future resistance.

Also for the book "The Ghetto FIght":

Arms were smuggled into the ghetto in precisely the same manner as other contraband. Bribed Polish policemen closed their eyes to heavy parcels thrown over the ghetto walls at designated spots. ZOB liaison men immediately disposed of the packages. The Jewish policemen guarding the ghetto walls had no voice in the matter. Our most active liaison men with the "Aryan side" were Zygmunt Frydrych (who arranged the first transport of weapons), Michal Klepfisz, Celemenski, Fajgele Peltel (Wladka), and many others. Michal Klepfisz in cooperation with the PS and WRN groups made the necessary arrangements for a large-scale purchase of explosives and incendiaries (e.g. 2,000 litres of gasoline) and later, after transporting the shipment to the ghetto, set up a factory for the production of Molotov cocktails and hand grenades. The production process was primitive and simple, but the large output of the shop greatly increased the firing-power of our detachments. By now every partisan was equipped. on the average, with one pistol (and 10-15 rounds for it), 4-5 hand grenades, 4-5 Molotov cocktails. 2-3 rifles were assigned to each "area". There was just one machine-gun in the entire ghetto.

Some rifles were snuck in, they were generally hunting rifles. A few who knew how to shoot were used as snipers.

Rune

[ February 12, 2005, 10:31 PM: Message edited by: rune ]

[JonS]

A sniper is a man with a rifle. A man with a rifle is not (necessarily) a sniper.

As to the question: it depends. Generally I try to be 'reasonable', but often find the system forcing me to do funky stuff. It depends on the opponent. Dorosh is such a gamey sod that jeep rushes, split squads, and edge hugging are all he deserves. And it depends on the setting. ROWs aren't a good place to constrain ourself with doctrine that doesn't work well in the game.

Regards

JonS

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by JonS:

A sniper is a man with a rifle. A man with a rifle is not (necessarily) a sniper.

As to the question: it depends. Generally I try to be 'reasonable', but often find the system forcing me to do funky stuff. It depends on the opponent. Dorosh is such a gamey sod that jeep rushes, split squads, and edge hugging are all he deserves. And it depends on the setting. ROWs aren't a good place to constrain ourself with doctrine that doesn't work well in the game.

Regards

JonS

Pshaw, have we ever actually faced each other? I didn't think Gunner Grogs actually played CM...

[JonS]

No we haven't - in the end I couldn't bring myself to be that gamey. I had to go have a shower after just thinking about it.

Gunner Grogs™ don't 'play' CM. We commune with it.

[rune]

In this case Jon, there were also women with rifles, and they were used as snipers. In the book I mentioned, they have some detailed description of fighting, and how one female sniper was picking off Germans while not getting hit. Rathered a detailed report by one of the very few survivors.

Rune

[GSX]

CM just does not accurrately relflect women in combat. Nor civillians! Nver mind about civillian women on Horses.

[Squad Leader]

Interesting point about the use of solo riflemen (women) in the Ghetto ... I stand (somewhat) corrected. I suppose I would still find myself very surprised to find there were fighters in the Ghetto who could make snap headshots at 400 yards. If only there had been ...

[Folbec]

Originally posted by Squad Leader:

I suppose I would still find myself very surprised to find there were fighters in the Ghetto who could make snap headshots at 400 yards. If only there had been ...

It is also a game system limitation, I think snipers are programmed to stay very quiet under 150-200m (unless you order them to shoot manually, and then they die real quick because of Borg spotting)

[Larry Thorne]

It is also a game system limitation, I think snipers are programmed to stay very quiet under 150-200m (unless you order them to shoot manually, and then they die real quick because of Borg spotting)

IIRC conscript and greens will fire at closer ranges and die very quickly. Regular to elite don´t do stunts...I think there was a thread about elite, crack and veteran snipers refusing to fire if there is a chance to be spotted, even if given direct order to do so...but I could be wrong.

-LT

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by Squad Leader:

Interesting point about the use of solo riflemen (women) in the Ghetto ... I stand (somewhat) corrected. I suppose I would still find myself very surprised to find there were fighters in the Ghetto who could make snap headshots at 400 yards. If only there had been ...

It would appear rune is still very confused about the difference between snipers and sharpshooters - or was he telling us that these women in the Ghetto were using telescopic sights to engage targets at 400 metres distance? I shouldn't have thought that likely in an urban environment (?)

[Cannon-fodder]

As to the sharpshooter taking out the driver, well... luck? These things did and do happen after all... And anyway, I'm sure some of the guys in the ghetto would have had experience with rifles - don't forget some of the men would have served in WW1.

As to historical accuracy... well, I look at it like this: nothing 'gamey', but I should use my own tactical/strategic doctrine to battle... If you just follow someone else's rules, where's the creativity? Having said that, the Germans/Russians weren't stupid, and worked out some pretty advanced doctrine anyway as the war went on.

If we try to restrict our playing to what the commander would have done at the time, that'll mean far too much research... not doing one thing because, in 1940, overwatch hadn't been invented or something like that:)

[rune]

Well, since CMBB doesn't have snipers, mo i was not confused. What is so hard to believe that people with hunting experience were given the rifles? Look at this photo and tell me a 400 meter shot was not possible.

http://fcit.coedu.usf.edu/holocaust/GALL31R/26559.htm

Comments:

On the fourth storey, at a small window, our old soldier Diamarit is at his combat post. His is a long rifle whose glorious history reaches back to the Russo-Japanese War. Diamant is phlegmatic, his movements are slow but deliberate. The young boys near him impatiently try to hurry him along. But Diamant is imperturbable. He aims at the stomach, hits the heart. Every shot finishes off another German.

At the second storey window is Dwojra, firing away rancourously at targets in the square a block away. The Germans spot her: "Schau, Hans, eine Frau schiesst!" They try to get her, but somehow their bullets miss. She, apparently, does not miss often, for, strangely enough, they withdraw quickly.

This one surprised me, not gun related:

On May 8th detachments of Germans and Ukrainians surrounded the Headquarters of the ZOB Command. The fighting lasted two hours, and when the Germans convinced themselves that they would be unable to take the bunker by storm, they tossed in a gas-bomb. Whoever survived the German bullets, whoever was not gassed, committed suicide, for it was quite clear that from here there was no way out, and nobody even considered being taken alive by the Germans. Jurek Wilner called upon all partisans to commit suicide together. Lutek Rotblat shot his mother, his sister, then himself. Ruth fired at herself seven times.

Thus 80% of the remaining partisans perished, among them the ZOB Commander, Mordechaj Anielewicz.

Imagine their courage, knowing their fate, and willing to fight with anything they had, many times nothing, to keep from being taken out of the ghetto. It is why I mae the scenario, to honor their courage.

Rune

[JonS]

Originally posted by rune:

Look at this photo and tell me a 400 meter shot was not possible.

Given that in that photo a man-sized targets is starting to get fuzzy and indistinct at about the 3rd lamppost (~150m) ... ?

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by rune:

Well, since CMBB doesn't have snipers, mo i was not confused. What is so hard to believe that people with hunting experience were given the rifles? Look at this photo and tell me a 400 meter shot was not possible.

http://fcit.coedu.usf.edu/holocaust/GALL31R/26559.htm

Comments:

On the fourth storey, at a small window, our old soldier Diamarit is at his combat post. His is a long rifle whose glorious history reaches back to the Russo-Japanese War. Diamant is phlegmatic, his movements are slow but deliberate. The young boys near him impatiently try to hurry him along. But Diamant is imperturbable. He aims at the stomach, hits the heart. Every shot finishes off another German.

At the second storey window is Dwojra, firing away rancourously at targets in the square a block away. The Germans spot her: "Schau, Hans, eine Frau schiesst!" They try to get her, but somehow their bullets miss. She, apparently, does not miss often, for, strangely enough, they withdraw quickly.

This one surprised me, not gun related:

On May 8th detachments of Germans and Ukrainians surrounded the Headquarters of the ZOB Command. The fighting lasted two hours, and when the Germans convinced themselves that they would be unable to take the bunker by storm, they tossed in a gas-bomb. Whoever survived the German bullets, whoever was not gassed, committed suicide, for it was quite clear that from here there was no way out, and nobody even considered being taken alive by the Germans. Jurek Wilner called upon all partisans to commit suicide together. Lutek Rotblat shot his mother, his sister, then himself. Ruth fired at herself seven times.

Thus 80% of the remaining partisans perished, among them the ZOB Commander, Mordechaj Anielewicz.

Imagine their courage, knowing their fate, and willing to fight with anything they had, many times nothing, to keep from being taken out of the ghetto. It is why I mae the scenario, to honor their courage.

Rune

I wouldn't call that uninteresting, but what does any of it have to do with the employment of scoped rifles? I thought that a scoped rifle, being used at great distances, was what set a "sniper" apart from a sharpshooter....

[Guest Mike]

Originally posted by Squad Leader:

Interesting point about the use of solo riflemen (women) in the Ghetto ... I stand (somewhat) corrected. I suppose I would still find myself very surprised to find there were fighters in the Ghetto who could make snap headshots at 400 yards. If only there had been ...

Who said it was a snap shot?

[rune]

JonS, because at that point [the picture] the Germans changed tactics and just burned all of the buildings. The smoke is starting to obscure. They had lost enough men to decide it was the best way to drive the fighters out.

Michael, How many meters is a city block? I can only go off a city block here, and that isn't a fair comparison, a modern street to back then. I am guessing you are correct, would be about 220 meters. Still not a bad shot.

The rifles were smuggled into the ghetto. Remember, this is before the Polish Partisans really gained momentum. Some weapons were gotten from the partisans, including the only machine gun at the start of the fighting. Here is what he says:

Arms were smuggled into the ghetto in precisely the same manner as other contraband. Bribed Polish policemen closed their eyes to heavy parcels thrown over the ghetto walls at designated spots. ZOB liaison men immediately disposed of the packages. The Jewish policemen guarding the ghetto walls had no voice in the matter. Our most active liaison men with the "Aryan side" were Zygmunt Frydrych (who arranged the first transport of weapons), Michal Klepfisz, Celemenski, Fajgele Peltel (Wladka), and many others. Michal Klepfisz in cooperation with the PS and WRN groups made the necessary arrangements for a large-scale purchase of explosives and incendiaries (e.g. 2,000 litres of gasoline) and later, after transporting the shipment to the ghetto, set up a factory for the production of Molotov cocktails and hand grenades. The production process was primitive and simple, but the large output of the shop greatly increased the firing-power of our detachments. By now every partisan was equipped. on the average, with one pistol (and 10-15 rounds for it), 4-5 hand grenades, 4-5 Molotov cocktails. 2-3 rifles were assigned to each "area". There was just one machine-gun in the entire ghetto.

Hmm guessing the male's rifle was the M1891 Mosin-Nagant. The model M1891/30 did have a small low powered sight. About all I know of the rifle.

Rune

[Panzer76]

Originally posted by rune:

Ruth fired at herself seven times.

Not a very good shot, now was she

Originally posted by rune:

Imagine their courage, knowing their fate, and willing to fight with anything they had, many times nothing, to keep from being taken out of the ghetto. It is why I mae the scenario, to honor their courage.

[/QB]

I take it you mean thay had courage to fight, instead of commiting suicide? If so I agree, if you mean the suicide bit, I disagree.

[dieseltaylor]

I have believed for sometime that sight has been deteriorating in a society that spends most of its time looking at objects in the 1-20ft range. Even driving most eye work is under 400 metres.

Basically I am saying that in 1940- they probably had more people with better vision than us and our standards are low.

An obscure point you may think ....

"TV 'linked to short-sightedness'

Watching too much television and spending too long in front of a computer is behind rising rates of short-sightedness, say scientists.

Australian researchers examined rising rates of short-sightedness in Asia. Countries like Japan and Singapore have seen a sharp increase in cases in recent years. Some experts say genes are behind the rise.

But the researchers found people's lifestyle was to blame, according to a report in New Scientist magazine.They said the findings may also explain rising rates of short-sightedness in other parts of the world.

East Asia has much higher rates of short-sightedness or myopia than other parts of the world. In Singapore, 80% of 18-year-old men recruited to the army are short-sighted. This compares with 25% just 30 years ago.

There has also been an increase in the number of people with extreme myopia, which can lead to blindness. As kids spend more time indoors, on computers or watching telly, we are going to become just as myopic

Police and other employers are having problems finding people who meet their requirements for good sight.

Ian Morgan and colleagues at the Australian National University in Canberra reviewed 40 studies. They found no evidence to support the theory that genes were behind the rising rates of myopia in East Asia.

For instance, they found that while 70% of 18-year-old men of Indian origin living in Singapore have myopia, it only affects 10% of those living in India.

Similarly, 80% of 14 to 18-year-old boys in religious schools in Israel, which have a strong emphasis on reading religious texts, have myopia.

This compares to just 30% of those in state schools, where there is no such emphasis.

The researchers said their findings, originally published in the American Journal of Human Genetics, point to lifestyle factors rather than genetics. They warned that western countries are also set to see rates of myopia rise in the years ahead.

In Sweden, 50% of 12-year-old children are short-sighted. That is expected to be 70% by the time they are 18.

"As kids spend more time indoors, on computers or watching telly, we are going to become just as myopic," said Ian Morgan.

Professor Bernard Gilmartin, director of research at the Neurosciences Research Institute at Aston University in Birmingham, welcomed the study.

"The findings relate to what we call school myopia which has a classic onset of nine or 10 years of age," he told BBC News Online.

"He is saying that who ever you expose to urbanisation or the education background associated with modern life, the chances are they will become myopic."

I cannot find anything currently regarding people with long sight but outdoorsmen - hunters etc may well be capable of shots we consider impossible without aids.

Incidentally I did find a site based on the work of an American doctor from 1900 who argued the necessity of eye exercise - a prophet before his time. : )

[Ant]

I'm long sighted. How long do I have to sit in front of the TV for my eyesight to become normal?

[Michael Dorosh]

The article doesn't say why myopia occurs.

Do you mean to say the eye doesn't get enough "exercise" looking at things at distance?

[dieseltaylor]

Michael,

Yes. I think so.

"http://www.i-see.org/eyecharts.html"

and there is a link to the Bates Method of exercise

[junk2drive]

Deleted

[ February 14, 2005, 05:53 PM: Message edited by: junk2drive ]