Attacking effectively/destroying SMG squads

[Redwolf]

Very well.

I won't be home this evening and hence won't get to a CM computer until Friday evening.

You want to attack or defend? Any particular map in mind?

Timeframe should be more or less predetermined by the requirement to get the Volksgrenadier SMG infantry. Let's play summer so that the woods will be tight and the attacker doesn't have to move over snow.

[walpurgis nacht]

Originally posted by redwolf:

Very well.

I won't be home this evening and hence won't get to a CM computer until Friday evening.

You want to attack or defend? Any particular map in mind?

Timeframe should be more or less predetermined by the requirement to get the Volksgrenadier SMG infantry. Let's play summer so that the woods will be tight and the attacker doesn't have to move over snow.

Are we talking Combined Arms attack vs Combined Arms defense? Volksgrenadier SMG are not included in AK . . . at least not in my beta version, but I'm pretty sure that wasn't added at the last minute. If you want an SMG/heavy terrain setting BB is better. If you want an AK match, I 'll do one anyway.

[ December 11, 2003, 06:24 PM: Message edited by: Walpurgis Night ]

[Redwolf]

I was thinking of unrestricted forces, where obviously the SMG defender would have mostly infantry. The terrain would be so close that people would probably voluntarily choose infantry.

No Volksgrenadiere in CMAK? Bummer. Let me get home and have a look at the alternatives.

[Redwolf]

Doh, no Volksgrenadiere in CMAK.

The closest thing I can find is Italian mid-war airborne SMG squads. However, they have LMGs and only come in platoons with 2x SMG and 2x rifle squads.

[walpurgis nacht]

The original idea here was to deal with the gross imbalance between russian SMG troops vs anything else. There are no great imbalances like that in CMAK.

We can setup an AK pbem for fun if you like.

[athkatla]

What happened to JasonC? Nothing been heard from him since the challenge to fight was issued!!

[JasonC]

I said "no" a long time ago, in another thread entirely. And posted several times after that.

As for SMGs in CMAK, they are there. They aren't called "VG" but they are present. For the Germans you want "Jager 43" and "Jager 44" infantry types, which are available in the Italian theater from February 1944 on. They have 1 LMG, 6-7 SMG, and 2 rifles per squad. In the last few months, March 45 to the end, the "Sturm" type is also available, platoon only, with 4 MP44s in place of some of the SMGs but otherwise like the "Jagers". Some of the GB are armed like other Jagers. Early in the war, Italian airborne are also automatic heavy, with 2 SMG squads (each LMG, 9 SMG) and 2 LMG squads (each 2 LMG, 4 SMG, 4 Rifle). German FJ are 2 LMG, 4 SMG, 6 Rifle, so not truly SMG heavy, just well armed - as are Pz Gdrs etc.

[xerxes]

Ugh, I hate those gamey Italians! airborne players.

[Redwolf]

I've seen those squads, but they don't really make for a SMG test game.

The Italians come in 4-squad platoons with 2 SMG squads and 2 rifle squads. Jaeger and Gebirgsjaeger have 2 rifles and 1 MG42 and hence substancial firepower at range. The only SMG-like thing they have is low ammo.

I'm still looking for something fun to test.

[JasonC]

Low ammo and enourmous close in firepower. I don't see the objection, frankly. CMAK players will use them for the same tactical role as pure SMG squads. It is dumb to blow their ammo at long range, because there isn't enough of it and fp beyond the 100m range (where SMGs are still contributing) is minimal. The Italian Paras second squad type is not "rifles" is it LMG - with 2xLMG, 4xSMG, and 4xR. The fp beyond 100m is like a German half squad.

[xerxes]

and in browsing the unit lists the allies really don't have anything comparable to the Italian paras. In closed terrain the Italians will be great defensive infantry. The balance between 2 "up-close" and 2 "medium range" squads makes an excellent platoon.

[Redwolf]

Originally posted by JasonC:

Low ammo and enourmous close in firepower. I don't see the objection, frankly. CMAK players will use them for the same tactical role as pure SMG squads. It is dumb to blow their ammo at long range, because there isn't enough of it and fp beyond the 100m range (where SMGs are still contributing) is minimal. The Italian Paras second squad type is not "rifles" is it LMG - with 2xLMG, 4xSMG, and 4xR. The fp beyond 100m is like a German half squad.

Well, in CMAK and CMBB these squads with LMGs will create the 50m supression circle around any point they hit. Thus, they can effectivly prevent movement at range, even with few shots (area fire has a lower rate of fire).

[JasonC]

Redwolf, SMG infantry always works with a modest mix of LMG-rifle infantry and with MG teams to provide open area coverage at longer ranges. The ability of the separate, shorter range automatic-heavy squads to remain hidden while that part of the fight is going on is half the point.

Objecting to tests against SMG squads because you think a given type is *more* capable is absurd. If they are harder to deal with, the more reason for defenders to use them, and the more important it is to have effective tactics to deal with them.

The whole subject started with one fellow's contention that SMGs work well on defense, a notion challenged by others but I believe by now not controversial. There may be sound tactics against SMG infantry defenses as there are tactics against anything. But it is a powerful form of defense (particularly in heavy terrain), that requires serious countermeasures to handle.

And this is as true in CMAK as it was in CMBB. Whether it is German Jagers on a reverse slope in Italy, or Italian paras in a town at night, tackling SMG infantry defenses in the right conditions for those defenses is a difficult and important "tactical drill".

In open desert all infantry is at a disadvantage and short range infantry perhaps more so. But CMAK is not all about open desert fighting.

[walpurgis nacht]

"Objecting to tests against SMG squads because you think a given type is *more* capable is absurd. If they are harder to deal with, the more reason for defenders to use them, and the more important it is to have effective tactics to deal with them. "

yeah yeah

The idea here was to deal with the gross close range firepower imbalance between russian SMG squads vs. any other squad in BB. In AK, there aren't any imbalances even a fraction as extreme.

The Italian Airborne are a rarity in AK, but certainly will be problematic in tight terrain. Otherwise the 40 meters fight is much more balanced in AK.

[JasonC]

Italian airborne has 40m FP of 340 for the 2 SMG squads and 218 for the 2 LMG squads, 279 average for the 4. Brit rifle 40 type have 132. German Jagers have 40m FP of 301 for all 3 squads in the platoon. Brit rifle 42 type have 161, while French have 139. The Americans with their M-1s do better, with 209. But there is a comparable short range FP discrepancy between Jagers and the other allies in Italy, to the match up between Italian airborne and Brits in North Africa.

The automatic heavy guys have basically twice the short range FP of their rifle heavy opponents in either case. That is comparable to the short range FP discepancy between Russian SMGs and German panzer rifle, though not as wide as the one between Russian SMG and vanilla German rifle. It is certainly still wide enough to have important tactical effects. Jagers in Italy from early 1944 on are basically SMG infantry.

[CMplayer]

Originally posted by redwolf:

in CMAK and CMBB these squads with LMGs will create the 50m supression circle around any point they hit.

50 meter radius or diameter?

[Redwolf]

Originally posted by CMplayer:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by redwolf:

in CMAK and CMBB these squads with LMGs will create the 50m supression circle around any point they hit.

50 meter radius or diameter? </font>

[CMplayer]

Thanks!