German Tactics against Russian tanks needed

[Knaust]

What is the best tactics for German tanks against Russian ones in 1942?

In the Stalingrad Pack scenario “When Worlds Collide” the PzIIIJ’s are no match for the T-34’s…simply they cannot penetrate them while being easily penetrated by the Russkies.

I tried to counter the T-34’s with the StuGIIIF’s at a distance of 1100-1200 mts being confident that their superior optics would have helped, but the duel between 2 StugIIIF’s and 4 T-34’s ended with the loss of the Stug’s and 1 T-34 being penetrated twice.

I’m not sure that the optics is consistently modelled, simply I haven’t found any great advantage for the Germans.

[Joachim]

Originally posted by Knaust:

What is the best tactics for German tanks against Russian ones in 1942?

In the Stalingrad Pack scenario “When Worlds Collide” the PzIIIJ’s are no match for the T-34’s…simply they cannot penetrate them while being easily penetrated by the Russkies.

I tried to counter the T-34’s with the StuGIIIF’s at a distance of 1100-1200 mts being confident that their superior optics would have helped, but the duel between 2 StugIIIF’s and 4 T-34’s ended with the loss of the Stug’s and 1 T-34 being penetrated twice.

I’m not sure that the optics is consistently modelled, simply I haven’t found any great advantage for the Germans.

Which model of the PzIIIj ? The late model with 50+20 frontal armor and the 50L60 is a good match for the T34 M41 or M42.

The better optics allow for a faster acquisition of targets. Once the Russians zero in, the advantage is reduced.

IIRC the T34 has a higher ROF than the StuGs. So 4 T34 have (at least) double the amount of shots vs double the hit probability of the StuGs. Expect an equal amount of hits!

The T34s have big HE loads as AP, so the effect after penetration is just boom. The StuG's shots may just ricochet on the sloped armor of the T34.

Which outcome do you expect? There is even a mathematical law for this effect (search some old JasonC threads).

The content of that law:

Never ever start a shooting match with superior numbers of tanks if they are not outclassed.

You can face several T34(76mm)s with a lone Tiger. A pair of StuGs with 80mm frontal armor will make a stand vs a few T34(76mm)s at above 500m. PzIIIj(late) will hold their ground vs an equal number of T34s.

My tactic would be to keep the T34s fixed with the PzIIIj (if late model) at 600m, then go for flank shots with the StuGs at above 750m. Angle between firing lanes should be 120°. Fixing does not mean you start dueling it out. Shoot and scoot with the PzIII till the StuGs arrive if you have to keep the T34 occupied. Preferably show your PzIII to the T34s so they just have time to turn around and face the PzIII when you arrive for flank shots with the StuGs. Should the T34s decide to face the StuGs afterwards - well, turning tanks don't fire in CM and even the 50L42 has a chance to penetrate the sides of a T34.

If all of your StuGs are gone, use a PzIII plt for flanking. Keep your armor concentrated on the target. Do not use them piecemeal. Try to attack small numbers of tanks. Keyholing your flank attack might work even better.

In another game there was a "Chinese pincushion" tactics: Have your tanks in positions so one group A (good armor, weak gun) can see all targets once in firing position. These tanks are just out of range for frontal kills. Another Group B (weak armor, gun good enough for flank shots) can see only a part of the enemy. Which ever has flank shots to the enemy shows up first. A presenting targets as they are relatively(?) safe, B keyholed on a small portion of the enemy, probably using shoot&scoot. Enemy turns to face threat. When enemy has turned, the threat breaks contact.

Enemy tanks out of sight to group B may change direction to move into better firing positions once Group A is out of LOS. When Group A appears again it might even get rear shots.

Make sure you establish and break LOS with all tanks of a group at the same time. The distance to two tanks just 40m apart is almost the same. So when switching targets, the 2nd target is acquired much faster as you already zeroed in. So when the first disappears, the 2nd one gets all the incoming...

Keep you armor apart, only concentrate on the target area.

Gruß

Joachim

[ October 22, 2003, 05:45 AM: Message edited by: Scarhead ]

[Joachim]

So this is how the double posts are done...

[ October 22, 2003, 05:52 AM: Message edited by: Scarhead ]

[JasonC]

The Js in "Worlds Collide" are 50mm front, which means vulnerable out to significant ranges. They do have 50L60, the useful gun (early Js are short), and some T ammo for them. The StuGs in "WC" are also thin - they have good 75L43 guns but limited 50mm front armor.

The briefing says some Hs come late - haven't gone that far. Those have 50L42, a gun that isn't very useful, but also 30+30 armor, which starts bouncing 76mm from the upper hull at around 1000m and gets "proof" at around 1250m. The turret remains vulnerable, however.

You can't go toe to toe, even numbers, against T-34s with these tanks. You have to know the limitations of your own guns, and you must be acutely aware of their ability to kill even your front armor, even at medium to long range. To live you have to not get hit.

The 50L60 can kill a T-34 from the front, but only with sticky turret hits at short range. That means 350m for a good chance and 500m for a decent chance, with plain AP. With tungsten this extends to around 800m. Side hits can also do it but are sensitive to side angle, as 40 degree slope plus 30 or more degrees of side angle will deflect 50L60 readily. Occasional lower side hull hits will kill, but are too rare to count on.

The most common way you will get a kill with 50L60 is in a hull down duel, getting enough hits on the turret that some go in. Even these can be partials a fair portion of the time. Which can shock or damage rather than kill. You thus face multiple hurdles - must hit, then hit the turret, then get a good curved angle "roll", then get a good behind armor effect.

Each of these can be a matter of half go, half no go. Combined they mean you will need a lot of shots to KO a single T-34. An immediate problem is that T ammo does not last long in such extended shooting. You can't rely on a single tank's supply of T lasting long enough to KO a T-34. It might manage with half its load, but it might also run out without getting a full BAH flat turret hit. If you are at 800m rather than 400m, that can get you killed.

The way to deal with this is to engage a single T-34 with at least 2 and preferably with 4 Pz III Js. 2 and a range under 400m will often work. But if you lose one rapidly to a lucky early shot from the T-34, you can lose the duel and both tanks as a result. So 4 is safer even in close.

You should expect a Pz III J platoon to kill only 1-2 T-34s at range before running out of T ammo. After that, they will want short ranges (400m) to be sure of getting penetrations - or side shots with little side angle, or both in combination.

The StuGs are more forgiving. But you do not want to stand off at long range, thinking optics will win for you. Instead you want 800m to 1000m range, with the lower figure more reliable. The idea is to have every hit go in, any plate and regardless of modest side angle. At those ranges the hit chances are also high. So you can expect to kill a T-34 with only a few shots from 1-2 StuGs. (2 will help protect against a string of bad luck misses).

To protect the StuGs from the replies, you want these to be situations where you get LOS on an unsuspecting tank - whether he is moving or you are - with the StuG trained directly at him. Rotating delay is the way you will lose StuGs. The best target is a T-34 currently distracted by another vehicle.

How do you get these close ranges, many on few engagements, and live long enough to engage T-34s in sequence? You must make full use of dead ground, especially low lying areas but also patches of trees. You want to kill T-34s as they crest ridges around pits crawling with your Pz IIIs. The next pit back can have 1-2 StuGs in it, doing cresting drills at just the right time to bag a lone opponent at 800m.

You should also exploit the non-armor weaknesses of the T-34. Button them with MGs - this reduces their ability to pick up targets (far more than it does for you, with your cupolas and optics) and also increases their command delay (for want of radios). Reposition frequently to create differential LOS. They will find it difficult to "dance" as nimbly, to re-establish LOS and prevent many on fews. Use mortar smoke to isolate 1-2 T-34s from their buddies by masking the latter, leaving LOS from your tanks to the others clear.

Do not try to kill them all at once. Pick them off one or two at a time. Make them come to you to get LOS, and be ready for them. Use light armor as bait to encourage them to reposition, if they are hard to get at singly in their present deployment.

You will lose tanks to them. If 4 III Js face one T-34, though, you will take it with you. Likewise, 2 StuGs will kill one, even you lose one too. What you want is to trade evenly when things go badly and get clean single kills when they go well. Run him low on live T-34s.

Once he is low on numbers, your StuGs can take high positions to restrict his movements and force him into dead ground locations. Then use whatever blind spot his cover creates to get close to each with a full platoon of IIIs. Jump together to hull down LOS at close range. If you can arrange for it to be from a flank you are more likely to kill cleanly, instead of trading.

I hope this helps.

[undead reindeer cavalry]

in my opinion the optimal contact range in 1942 is 200-500 meters. when it gets to more than 500 meters, the German panzers get ineffective - you need multiple shots & hits and that just isn't going to happen. when it gets to less than 200 meters, the speed & fast turrets of some Soviet tanks give the Soviets too much advantage.

on the 200-500 meter range you don't need to flank the enemy. just split your panzers into pairs and spread them around a bit. that way the Soviets are forced to stop on that 200-500 meter range, because if they move forwards some of your pairs will get flank shots. by spreading the pairs, you get an extra minute or two of 200-500 meter fighting.

this doesn't need to be a defensive position, if it sounds like one. just spread the pairs a bit and try to limit the contact to that 200-500 meter range.

don't get obsessed in terrain. don't look too hard for cover. don't be afraid to use open spaces. favourable positions are over rated. once the battle starts the terrain is more or less irrelevant. timing is of essence. just move to positions that give you the 200-500 meter range.

in armored battles the lines of advance are very fluid and dynamic. there are no real flanks so there isn't much point in trying to flank. counterflanking is easier than flanking. the best solution is a direct full speed head-on clash with a proper sense for timing. you get the initiative and Soviets are unable to maximize the lethality of their focused superior firepower, moveability & artillery support.

in my opinion sneaking, hiding and flanking work only if the enemy doesn't know what he is doing.

[ October 23, 2003, 08:15 AM: Message edited by: undead reindeer cavalry ]

[Tank Ace]

here is a good tactic.. RUN!