In 1941, Russian armor superiority over German's

[MikeyD]

It was my impression that most of the initial Russian losses in 41 weren't from fighting per se, but through encirclement. You've got half a million men suddenly cut off from command, food, fuel, reinforcements, route of retreat, etc. You've either got to turn your army and try a fighting break out (not an easy maneuver) or you sit and starve. Sounds like in that case the physical size of the Russian landmass was an actual handicap to defending it against mobile attack.

[JasonC]

They did not sit and starve. There was tons of fighting trying to get out of the pockets. In the later ones, Bryansk in particular, hundreds of thousands did get out, especially through woods and marshes or by night infiltration between the German positions. But also by direct attack.

The eastern wall of the pockets right after they formed were generally held by the infantry of the mobile divisions, both motorised infantry and panzer. The side walls started that way but rapidly transitioned to leg infantry. These were then on the tactical defensive, while the Russians had to attack. After the first few days surrounded, often with little coordination, artillery support (ammo low, coordination gone), and with limited tank support (fuel exhausted rapidly once rail lines cut, breakdowns abandoned, etc).

But this was still tough fighting for the German infantry divisions. They had the advantage of heavy weapons and artillery support, working systems of reserves, etc, and the opponents were green and mostly pure infantry. There were just a lot of them. The pockets were huge and their walls could not be held with thick deployments. If you've heard tales of masses of Russians charging German machineguns and artillery recklessly, this is what they are most likely talking about.

The fight went out of the pockets rapidly, however. One of the biggest factors was undoubtedly sheer physical fatigue. Panic is not conducive to adequate shut eye, and sleep deprivation makes men walking zombies in about 72 hours. Ammo for the indirect guns and fuel for the tanks also had to give out pretty rapidly.

A lot of it, though, was probably the combination of evasion by scattered groups combined with high losses in unsuccessful attacks, draining off the most determined manpower and leaving the wounded, dispirited, and disorganized. The walls keep getting stronger as more German infantry marches up and as the pocket shrinks. The forces inside keep getting weaker. A week or so in, those who haven't made it out already see the last best chance is a night escape through woods or marsh. Some make it, many don't, some go partisan, nothing is left in large cohesive formations anymore. The rest surrender.

That is the penalty for not keeping an intact line. Vastness does not cause it, and in fact helps prevent 1 or 2 such occasions from deciding the war outright, as Poland and France were decided. The Germans thought there was no way the Russian army could withstand such defeats and not completely collapse. But it didn't. It mobilized new forces as fast as it lost old ones.

[manchildstein (ii)]

it is interesting reading here about some successes of the bt7 tanks... i would think that in cmbb this would involve making the crews 'elite' (crack)...

from advanced squad leader i'd always thought the bt to be a fairly decent series of tanks... good guns... good speed... and armor never mattered much to me... but in cmbb they seem fairly abysmal... but that's with 'green' (conscript) crews for the most part