CMBB quickbattle armor limit rules, version 1.0beta1 (comments requested)

[Redwolf]

I was working on a Fionn-like armor limit ruleset for CMBB for some time. I am reasonably satisfied with the result, so I'm going to the next phase, a beta test on the T&T forum: let me know what you think.

The ruleset is at http://65.96.131.208/tmp/armorrules/

Here is copy of the design documentation for version 1.0beta1, for the actual limit tables please see the site above.

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Combat Mission quickbattles where people choose their own forces have an "arms race" problem. While people would usually like to try new things and like fast gameflow from swift vehicles, they are often forced to purchase at least some of the heaviest available tanks and SP guns available. Failing to do so will often result in a game where one side got the heaviest AVFs available and the other player has to concentrate all efforts on dealing with them. This is not desired as a game like Combat Mission is about rich tactical choices and exploring combined arms tactics. More often than not, the "offender" did choose the heavy armor not to damage gameplay, but just to be safe from his dopponent doing the same.

For CMBO we had the Fionn rules, limiting heavy armor in several categories. People would agree to one of the categories and then restrict themself to purchasing only vehicles allowed on that list. In CMBB the situation is more difficult because the game spans a much wider timeframe. Any practical voluntary armor limit must be heavily timeline-oriented. As with any ruleset for any game, complexity must be kept at a minimum.

The ruleset presented here is only limiting vehicles with too thick armor. Unlike the old Fionn CMBO rules it does not exclude vehicles for having too big guns. If you want to buy a Nashorn to shoot up Stuarts, then by all means go for it and have fun (while it lasts, hehe).

As mentioned, the exclusion tables are time-oriented. For each month there is a definition of what the strongest common gun for each side is. Enemy vehicles which cannot be knocked out by this strongest common gun are excluded.

The precise definition is: there must be one towed gun and and one vehicle which gets a kill chance of "Low" or better at 550m head-to-head, shooting AP. The rarity of this gun and this vehicle must be 50% or less. Lots of exceptions to this rule apply.

Here are the events that change availability:

# Phase 1, 1941: everything not killable by the 37mm Pak36 gun or the Soviet 45mm AT gun is excluded. The early war fanboy club is invited.

# Phase 2, 194201 - 1942004: in January of 1942 the 50mm L/60 PaK38 becomes commonly available and hence the T-34 is allowed. And in turn, since the T-34 76mm L/42 gun is now in the game, all Axis vehicles vulnerable to this gun are now allowed.

# Phase 3, 194205 - 194309: in May of 1942 the Axis 75mm L/43-48 becomes available. This allows the KV tanks for the Soviets. Note that German vehicles with complete 80mm front are still not allowed, since the 76mm L/42 on the T-34 is still the Soviet reference gun.

# Phase 4, 194310 - 194401: from October 1943 on the Allied player is expected to deal with complete 80mm front Axis vehicles using SP guns and lent-lease tanks and stop whining about the T-34 gun.

# Phase 5, 194402 - 194412: the T-34/85 becomes available in February 1944. This has few immediate effect, since the both ammo types given to it in CMBB 1.03 cannot touch Panther and Tiger at the reference distance. The only vehicles that become newly available are the Jagdpanzer IV (early) and the Panzer IV/70(A). Hetzer, Brummbaer and friends are still not in.

# Phase 6, 1945: In Januar 1945 the SU-100 and hence the Panther, Tiger 1 and the medium tank hunters become available. The superheavies stay restricted: Jagdpanther, Jagdtiger, Sturmtiger, King Tiger and IS-3.

[ June 17, 2003, 10:54 AM: Message edited by: redwolf ]

[PiggDogg]

Red,

Very, very good work. Thanks.

Looks useable and useful.

Cheers, Richard

[Redwolf]

I have a question for you guys:

The borders of Phase 4 are somewhat fuzzy. I allow the 80mm front Axis

vehicles when my gut feeling is saying that the Sherman, 6-pdr

Valentines and various SUs have enough chance to kill these things.

The alternative would have been to continue to forbit them. This

wouldn't take away much from the Axis player's choices, since most of

these 80mm-front vehicles have thinner variants which do the same

things otherwise. It would mean however that the Soviet player can

continue to only shop T-34s and be safe.

So, what do you think is the better choice, fun'n'gameplay-wise: keep

them limited, so that the Soviet player doesn't have to think over

getting anything better? Or to make them available to nag the Soviet

player a little with a tough choice? After all, players can choose a

Phase 3 month if they don't like it.

I decided for the latter for now because I think it makes for richer

gameplay.

[JasonC]

It does force the Russian player to take rare, less historical vehicles in late 1943. I am sure the Germans will take StuGs then. But the window is reasonably narrow, time-wise. It is certainly preferably to have a few months of StuG tackling in late 1943, when there are multiple methods available, instead of the whole middle half of the war.

Overall, I like the system a lot.

1941 is a bit of a tangle. The rating of Russian 45mm penetration, with shatter effects and typical side angles included, is quite poor early on. Most of the German types aren't really vunerable to it.

I've seen Pz IIs repeatedly bounce 45mm AP at 500m, at least in earlier versions. (That may reflect "boosted" modeling of layered armor, though - 15+20 e.g.).

The KVs are obviously out. Then the issue gets a little chicken and egg like.

The T-34 is tough but killable in 1941. (The 50L42 can kill it with front turret hits. 50L60 is available as a towed PAK, and the 28mm squeeze bore can also get through the turret). In return, it kills all the 50mm front jobs at typical ranges.

Drop it for its armor, though, and the Russians have only 45mm lights. None of which can withstand even 20mm fire, and none of which can reliably kill any of the ~50mm armor German types.

That would seem to leave Pz IIs, the earliest model Czechs, and the 30mm varieties of IIIs and IVs. And against even their thinner armor, the 1941 45mm is marginal at 500m. All their own guns go through the BTs and T-26s like paper.

I suppose the cherry picking problem is so bad the T-34s just don't belong in QBs in 1941. And therefore none of the 50-60mm armored German varieties can be allowed, either.

In that case the Germans just take Pz IIs to kill the lights, and perhaps Pz IVDs for HE. They are very strong in that match up.

[Redwolf]

Thanks for the input.

The 1941 phase is very hard to make fair because it starts from so disadjusted real-world matches.

The Russians lack a low-rarity 76mm vehicle and all tanks are vulnerable to 20mm fire.

However, the Russians get their stuff very cheap due to various factors. Without rarity you can get a platoon of BT-5 artillery tanks for 211 points. That is five very fast 76mm vehicles for not much more than the Germans pay for two of their HE thrower tanks (Pz IVC or D).

If you play with rarity on then you might still consider getting the artillery tanks at the higher price and the Soviet 45mm does way more damage to infantry than the typical German gun. While the Germans can live with 20mm vehicles given your very thin armor they still pay the same bucks for a 20mm tank as you for a 45mm tank.

Overall, I guess play testing will show. There are time periods which are easier to get right and some are harder.

[ June 17, 2003, 10:06 PM: Message edited by: redwolf ]

[JasonC]

Yes the Russians lights are cheap, so you can get lots of them. The thing that worries me is whether they can actually kill even the "legal" German tanks. The 45mm is really that weak in 1941, as modeled in the past anyway.

I've eaten a -company- of BTs with a -pair- of Pz IIs. The autocannon might as well be a laser cannon, and 45mm bounces from 15+20 with modest angle at medium range. The only problem I had with Pz IIs was running through all the ammo - due to high ROF, limited behind armor effect, and the death clock.

I do think testing is in order. Make sure the supposedly "vunerable" 1941 German models really are vunerable at 550m.

[JasonC]

The ideal thing for 1941 would be something with restricted random draws, to avoid the cherry picking problem. Often the Russians would have only T-26s, and the Germans could do well with IIs or the better Czechs. Sometimes it would be a flock of BTs going for the flanks with a few nasty T-34s coming straight on, and suddenly you feel like you need the best IIIs even to stand a chance. But if you allow players to pick T-34s and 50-60mm front IIIs, they won't take anything else, the prices be darned. And then you are fighting the 1942 battle, not the 1941 battle.

[Redwolf]

All my tables are carefully constructed with the actual CMBB 1.03 engine, to make sure that the kill chance at 550m is what I intended.

That is for example why the IIF is in and the IIC is not. The homogenous armor of the IIF is more vulnerable to the Russian 45mm than the bolted-on armor on the IIC.

That doesn't mean you should go head-to-head with a BT, because the hit probablity is against you. But if you do hit you have a decent chance of KO. I just ran a 20 IIC against 20 BT-5 test at 500-700 meters. The BT-5 lose 13:19 which is pretty good against the autocannon and certainly fair, because your speed is much better, you have a real HE blast etc.

[Joachim]

These qb rules apply to the classic "ME on a clear day in (fairly) open country"

Ever considered to modify these rules for attack and defense scenarios? For forest, fog or night?

Eg in '41, on the a defense the Soviet player can field 76mm ATGs, so for the attacking German there should be no limit regarding frontal armor. Same goes for a defending German. From 8 or 9/41 onwards he can buy 7,6cm PaK (or 5cm PaK) so a T34 - and even a KV - is less of a threat. He might even buy an 88. Vs the Soviet AI I usually don't fear any hvy tank if it is a MTG or a defensive scenario.

I would suggest in line with your rules:

If a less than 40% rare ATG can destroy a tank at 550m, the tanks should be allowed for the attacker.

Then I suggest an AD limit, as they too easily tear apart the light tanks at almost no cost. But if there is an AD limit, somebody might want an air limit, too.

Gruß

Joachim

[Redwolf]

Originally posted by Scarhead:

These qb rules apply to the classic "ME on a clear day in (fairly) open country"

What, who said that?

Ever considered to modify these rules for attack and defense scenarios? For forest, fog or night?

In my opinion, these rules are more important and useful for attack/defense. Inpenetratable defending AFVs are a gamekiller and it is not much less of a gamekiller if you have to get rare, unrealistic high-rarity stuff to be safe against such defenders.

On the contrary, in a ME it is much easier to flank, hence limits are less important.

Eg in '41, on the a defense the Soviet player can field 76mm ATGs, so for the attacking German there should be no limit regarding frontal armor. Same goes for a defending German. From 8 or 9/41 onwards he can buy 7,6cm PaK (or 5cm PaK) so a T34 - and even a KV - is less of a threat. He might even buy an 88. Vs the Soviet AI I usually don't fear any hvy tank if it is a MTG or a defensive scenario.

I would suggest in line with your rules:

If a less than 40% rare ATG can destroy a tank at 550m, the tanks should be allowed for the attacker.

I don't understand why you would need a limiting ruleset for this. You can easily do what you say by just playing without a ruleset and just not choosing a month where the 50mm PaK is not available.

Since the Russians never get any better non-rare towed guns and on the other hand no vehicles that could withstand a Pak40 frontal hit up to the end of the war the whole point is of very limited impact. I would hesitate to define a complex ruleset for such a limited goal, people absolutely hate complex rules.

Then I suggest an AD limit, as they too easily tear apart the light tanks at almost no cost. But if there is an AD limit, somebody might want an air limit, too.

Well, this is unfortunately true. Like CMBO, CMBB has a FlaK gun problem. In CMBO it was too high hit probablity and too high knockout-on-penetration chance, in CMBB it is the spottability.

But house rules not to buy 60 23mm AA guns are bejond the scope of the armor rules.

[ June 18, 2003, 11:53 AM: Message edited by: redwolf ]

[Joachim]

Originally posted by redwolf:

Me

Yes. KV or Tiger on defense is bad news.

Yes (depends on the size of the map, of course)

The ruleset would apply for the defender. Attacking with PaK is a bit tricky.

Ok, point taken. I'd reduce this complex thingy on an option "In '41, the GE attacker can take what he wants while the defender is not allowed to buy those tanks specified by your rules. Fo r mid to late war, the GE defender is not allowed to use the ÜberCats (as specified in your rules).

Ok, then somebody should do the Combined Arms rules

This is the reason why I suspected that it is mainly for ME's. On a defense, a few guns may very well increase your odds.

BTW: The idea (frontal armor and common guns) is great, as are the resulting rules.

Gruß

Joachim

[JasonC]

Scarhead - guns can always be bought that can defeat the enemy armor. But if no vehicles can be bought that can defeat them, the side with the unkillable AFVs is still a monster.

That brings cherry picking on both sides. One takes his least killable AFVs, and the other then *must* take the rarest towed guns, knowing his own armor points are likely to prove scrap metal.

He has instead deliberately set the rules to include each side having access to *vehicles* that can kill the thickest vehicle his opponent can take. This ensures that the whole armor war takes place on a reasonably even footing. It is the whole point of the system.

On the Panzer II tests, that sounds fine. It is the 15+20 armor modeling that creates the big balance issue. If the II C is out, that should not be a problem. I was thinking that only the 50mm and up tanks would be out.