Advice for someone still learning (was: AARs)

[DaffyDuck]

[ Delurking after almost five months ]

Hi everybody! I've been playing CMBB for a little while now and I've written up AARs for my games and posted them on my website if you're interested. I'm pretty much a total newbie to CMBB, and never played many wargames before that, so any comments, suggestions, or criticisms are welcome. I've got a lot to learn, as will probably be apparent if you read my AARs.

[ March 28, 2003, 11:11 AM: Message edited by: DaffyDuck ]

[Edward Windsor]

Well designed, well organised site. I'm not competent enough myself to comment on the AARs, although I thought the Infantry Advance was interesting.

I'm not sure about the "Pictures of Me" section ... you can't be too careful and Soddball has a real thing about "bad guy cowboys".

Toodle-pip,

Teddy

[JasonC]

Wonderful stuff. Very honest, if I may say so. I've all sorts of comments about how things were done in each battle, if you are interested.

My favorite line just as writing was the comment "my men were reaching the second floor of the church. From there they had a wonderful view of the newly arrived tanks blasting the hell out of them. I tried to get them back downstairs, but couldn't do it fast enough."

[DaffyDuck]

I'd love to hear any and all comments you have. I'm anxious to learn all I can about this fascinating and complex game. You can email me directly or post your thoughts here so we can all learn. Thanks.

[MG-42]

Hi Daffy,

Got to agree with the consensus and give you a big thumbs up for the colorful AAR's. You say your new but the depth of your reports would suggest otherwise (ever thought of a career with CNN as a war correspondant??)

BTW congratulations on the move to get married. You are a very lucky man. Libby is beautiful. But no matter how beautiful she is, you'll still spend most of your married life cheatin' on her with that irresistible dame called Combat Mission...sigh another CM:BB widow will soon stand before us.

Regards

MG

[Edward Windsor]

It might be worth posting in the Tips and Tricks forum, too. Less traffic and it will give more people a chance to check it out.

Teddy

[Soddball]

Great work on the AARs, and much appreciated. We need more of this kind of stuff, and less of Teddy Windsor. He is a harlot and a knicker-wearing pansy.

[JasonC]

Here is my analysis of the "A bit defensive" AAR. I'll write comments on others as I get a chance.

Your idea of using ATRs and 76 infantry guns as an AT network wasn't sound. You noticed the problem of sideways narrow arcs, that the enemy armor just doesn't rush forward like that. But you should also notice that the weapons aren't really suited to the idea.

ATRs can deal with halftracks, but are pretty marginal against tanks. If you need a 100m flank shot, (1) you aren't likely to get one (2) you are likely to be spotted after and killed. The biggest strength of the ATR is the difficulty spotting it. But that only comes out at longer ranges. To still penetrate, it needs to be shooting at something thin.

A couple of ATRs set back with wide LOS can handle HTs without exposing themselves, or more valuable larger AT guns or tanks. If you have more you can plan 300m and under fire lanes that cross at 120 degrees to get flank shots, and the ATRs will cover against light armor more generally (HTs, ACs, thin SP guns, Pz IIs), with some "annoyance" value against heavier 30mm sided tanks. Do not expect ATRs to provide "heavy AT" or true AFV killing for any area.

For ATG coverage, use 76mm divisional guns rather than the short barrelled 76mm infantry guns. The latter are HE chuckers. Cheap and fine for anti-infantry work, but pretty ineffective against armor (not accurate because of low muzzle velocity, poor range for the same reason, shells only effective vs. light armor, etc). With the force you had, only your KVs and T-34s were effective anti-tank weapons.

You won largely because (1) the AI attacks poorly (2) you took KVs in an era before the Germans have anything that can handle them (3) the Germans had only a platoon of tanks.

You did discover that a light arty barrage followed up with light armor is a very effective combination against infantry in the open or in marginal cover, like wheat and brush. That is a useful lesson. Humans typically avoid true open ground, but often have to use wheat or brush as "approach cover" because there aren't enough trees or the routes covered by them are too predictable and easy to defend.

A light FO to break initially, and a few light AFVs to cover with MGs vs. stragglers, can deny such avenues very effectively. The trick tends to be getting angles for the light armor that let them see the field the enemy is trying to cross, without exposing themselves too much to enemy armor. Sitting behind a house or wooded area with crossed angles of view can often accomplish this.

You could have used you existing heavy weapons much more effectively on the map you had. I mean your HMGs and 76mm infantry guns. Those are a strong combo against enemy infantry. You want to set them up in places with 300-500 yard sight lines, covering wide areas. Russian HMGs have limited firepower alone, so use pairs to cover each area.

By staying far back, you avoid giving the enemy more than a sound contact even when firing. And if he does locate you, his fire is limited - small arms do essentially nothing to men in cover at such ranges.

The 76mm infantry guns are used to deal with the covered areas, while the HMGs deal with the open ground. The HMGs pin men that leave the cover, halting advances and tending to make men collect in a few areas of woods. (Wire can also block some woods "exits", incidentally - the near side, a short ways in). Then the 76s unmask and dump HE into those woods. For very large woods, a TRP and light FO can be added.

You anticipated attacking infantry coming out of the "bowl" on your right correctly, but your defense against it was faulty. It worked anyway merely because the AI was poor and attacked piecemeal, and because you have 2 T-34s against mere halftracks as the remaining armor match up in the area at the critical time.

Your infantry defense in that area was too far forward. Instead of trying to hold every body of woods in your set up area, when you correctly anticipated an attack out of the "bowl" you should have chosen a *killing zone* to deal with the expected attackers. The obvious way to do this was (1) to conceed the first blocks of woods (where you actually set up your infantry) then (2) to halt additional progress beyond them and (3) then to plan on breaking men moving beyond those bodies of woods, and finally killing within them.

How would you go about doing this? To start with, by sighting the heavy weapons in two positions on your right rear and in the center hill area. Those then cross their fires just on your side of the first block of woods. 2 76s should be able to see those woods, the near side. 3-4 HMGs should be able to see the fields past them, from 2 angles crossing at 90 degrees. Then put the second TRP on the woods themselves, for a blast of 82mm at the right moment.

Next, look at all of the bodies of woods past the one you just conceeded. The large ones, put infantry platoons inside. The small single tile ones, ideally you'd put in an AP minefield to deny them as cover. If a few single tile woods or buildings are near each other, a platoon with a plus command rating leader to reach them all can be used to deny those. These infantry forces then get shortened covered arcs to avoid firing at enemies in the woods opposite, but fire at men that come out into the open and approach their own bodies of cover.

As for the T-34s, not so far forward. They'd be behind woods or rises, between the two heavy weapons positions, back near your board edge. Their primary mission is to hunt for German armor supporting their attack, after your infantry spots it. Their armor will have to come looking for your heavy weapons for their attack to work. When they do, you pop out and bag them, one at a time. If you've dealt with the armor, naturally they can come out to help against the infantry afterwards.

So, what happens to the attackers? They leave the bowl area where they are safe, uncontested. They can accumulate in a covered area past that - but one under observation and potential fire, not an invunerable place in dead ground. This is important. You don't want his rally and jump off point to be invunerable.

Then, do not contest them in that covered area prematurely. Do not try to KO them in cover at range with HMGs and infantry fire. Instead wait for them to begin moving beyond that cover. Of course some of them will stay and overwatch from that cover - that is to be expected. Understand that attackers face a general "cover shortage" and tend to pack men in to any decent spot they can safely (so they think) reach.

When the men cross into the open, the HMGs pin them, from too far away to be more than sound contacts. If enough of them press on, they find the next bodies of cover occupied and are fired on by full platoons of ordinary squad infantry, in open ground or wheat cover and at close range. When that fire breaks them, they have a long way to go to get back to cover, under HMG fire lanes.

Then rallying men have few places to collect besides the original woods. And reinforcements for the attack have few other places to come from. The conceeded woods should start getting crowded. You may not see them all, but flags will collect there as units are lost to view. If overwatch fire coming out of the woods gets heavy, or you see a lot of those flags, it is time to unmask the 76mm infantry guns and dump HE into the woods. Save the 82mm mortar blast for a final smashing, or after your 76s get KOed (e.g. by enemy armor, or mortars).

If you've won the armor war, T-34s can come out too. Their MGs will deny the open ground areas, supplimenting the foot HMG teams. Their 76s suppliment the towed ones, dumping HE into the woods. If things are going well, you can even approach the near side of the woods to 100m or so to increase the tank firepower, and send in a platoon or two of infantry to counterattack into the broken men in the kill zone woods.

See the idea? You want to let the attackers in someplace, to localize them. It lets you focus your defensive scheme on a target. Then you defend beyond the target sack, counter first by fire concentration into that target sack, and finish by counterattacking into it if all has gone well and the attackers there are broken. To create such opportunities, though, you have to be willing to defend from farther back, to conceed some distance along some obvious approach routes.

You noticed how bad it was to reposition an HMG team from one body of woods to another by foot movement. Slow heavy weapons should generally sit still on defense, or at most reposition within the same body of cover (to see right side, or left side e.g., typically 50m or less). If you must move from one body to another, make sure the route is covered, there are friendlies in the spot being moved to already, and if over 100m use a vehicle or forget it.

I hope these comments help.

[DaffyDuck]

Thanks for all the advice JasonC.

I had been thinking that ATRs would only be effective by hiding until they had a close range shot. But concentrating them on halftracks and other thin armor at range makes a lot more sense.

I especially like the HMG/76 combo you described (MGs cover the open, encouraging enemy to conecntrate in cover, where you hit them with the 76). I'm still learning the equipment. There's a lot in this game and knowing how to use each piece can make a real difference.

I've made several attempts to move HMGs around the battlefield and only succeeded once. Defensively, you should probably put them in a good spot and leave them there. But on the attack how do you ever get any use out of them? They're so slow and so vulnerable when moving that if the enemy even spits in their direction they hit the ground and start crawling away. It seems impossible to give them enough cover to move to a useful forward position. What am I doing wrong?

You say your new but the depth of your reports would suggest otherwise

Well I did lurk around here for a while before buying the game so I learned a thing or two. Also, my analysis could just be all wrong. I am analyzing my own games, so it's hardly imparital.

[Jack Ryan]

i lmao at the pics of u butt the priate one needs work - no CD burner or CD. lol

[DaffyDuck]

i lmao at the pics of u butt the priate one needs work - no CD burner or CD. lol

That's a good idea. I've had several funny suggestions for that page. Maybe I'll update it with some new pictures.

[JasonC]

Moving heavy weapons groups on the attack does take some learning and effort. What doesn't work is just putting individual heavy weapons down wherever, finding they don't have targets, and trying to move them along to keep up with the advance without any specific plan. As you've probably noticed, if you try that they draw fire crossing even small areas of open ground. And don't take too well to being shot in the open. You get destroyed mortars, HMG teams exhausted and sneaking the wrong way. Nobody gets set up or provides meaningful fire support.

To avoid all that you need a heavy weapons plan. I typically organize fire support groups around a weapons HQ or company HQ. They wind up about platoon size formations in manpower or number of unit terms. They move from fire base to fire base in definite, coordinated shifts, properly prepared. And integrate those movements with the overall attack plan.

What goes into a fire support group? A typical small example is a pair of HMGs, a single 81 or 82mm mortar, and an HQ. Sometimes it will be 2-3 light mortars instead of one large one. Sometimes there will also be an FO, or a sharpshooter. And there may be associated vehicles - an HE chucker AFV, or halftracks, or just a jeep or two. The basic idea is a long range "bag of tricks" to deal with many different types of enemy, using the proper weapon. Notice, it is not a matter of massing tons of firepower of one type, but of having a "full toolbox" to handle individual targets.

The right range for these overwatch groups is usually 300 to 500 yards from the enemy. That far away, enemy small arms aren't very dangerous, and aren't dangerous at all if you've got cover. But it is close enough for mortars and HMGs to hit things. Occasionally it helps to get one closer, like 200 yards, when the terrain permits (covered route, good cover). But mostly the covered areas that close to defenders are allocated to the ordinary squad infantry.

The main protection of the heavy weapons comes just from the position in your own formation. Squad infantry goes first, and stays around 200 yards ahead of the heavy weapons groups. That distance may oscillate, 300 yards before a heavy weapons group moves, or 100 yards right after a repositioning. But they don't try to stay "on line" with the squad infantry.

Repositionings are always from one area of cover to another, which the squad infantry have already reached and cleared of the enemy. The squad infantry might be there at the time the move starts, but is farther on by the time the heavy weapons actually arrive. Typically the enemy is "one field" ahead of the squad infantry, while the heavy weapons are "two fields" away. Before the squad infantry gets that close, there usually aren't fully IDed targets for the ranged weapons to shoot at.

At set up, the groups try to have LOS to some place the squad infantry will try to seize first. They don't need LOS clear to the far side of the map, although if available that helps FOs and towed guns, obviously. MG teams want LOS to open ground areas between bodies of cover in the defender's position, because their main role is restricting reserve movements.

The timing of a move is determined by LOS to enemies. When the heavy weapons group still has targets that are within 500 yards (or a bit less), there is little reason for them to move. They just need something to shoot at. If they've got it, their position is usually OK. The only partial exception is in the first "closing" portion of the battle, where they might be too far to hurt anything, defenders are unspotted or just sound contacts, etc.

The method of moving is first of all to use dead ground as much as possible. You've located some of the defenders and the squad infantry has cleared some areas. So you should have a decent idea which places are under enemy observation and which are not. The cover you are moving to usually creates a blind spot behind it. To shelter a whole overwatch group the cover has to be a decent size, and that usually means a large blind spot behind it. Low ground can also create good avenues.

Ideally, there is no LOS where you are (or you wouldn't be moving, you'd be shooting), and LOS is not re-established until you move to the forward side of the next bit of cover. If you have a squad along (with a company HQ e.g.) it goes first, otherwise the HQ and and sharpshooters. They are fast. They use "advance" over open areas to press on to cover and resist enemy fire a little better, and their passage will generally discover enemies with LOS to the route and orders to fire. If the squad infantry already took the route, you can dispense with the delay.

Next the teams themselves move out. The distance of the repositioning should be 200m or less, even with a covered route. If any part of it may be observed, try to keep the distance 100m or less. Vehicles can help longer moves. German HMGs and 50mm mortars are transport class 2 and can ride on the back of AFVs. The best movers of German 81mm mortars are SPWs. For the Russians, jeeps are good, but unfortunately can't fit a 82mm mortar (7 man crew). Drive to the back side blind spot of the cover you plan to use, disembark, and then re-use the vehicle. For foot moves, allow ~5 minutes for a repositioning.

Everyone goes to the back side of the cover first. You don't want to draw fire until set up. The HQ can move and sneak the last few to get LOS and spot for mortars. FOs likewise. MGs move not to the edge of the cover, but a ways in to limit exposure. Wait for everyone to get set up before "going active" (just use shortened arcs, you needn't hide), unless you'd got an emergency ahead.

You "walk" the LOS picture of the support group just ahead of the squad infantry. Pick cover areas on that basis, and on the basis of covered routes available to the new spot. Both are more important than wide fields of view. You don't need a wide field of view, you only need to see some defenders, any defenders. If you get to a spot with a very wide view, make sure it is one that is 300-500 yards from the last likely enemy positions, because you aren't likely to move beyond it.

If you take fire during a repositioning and can see and ID the shooters, stop the right weapon to deal with them right where it is, even in the open, and fire back. Weapons that can't hurt that type of shooter seriously can press for the nearest cover. If you can't ID anybody (e.g. MG at range, only a sound contact), then halt anybody in "pin" morale or currently targeted, and "move" anybody in yellow morale or better who is not currently targeted.

You will get free, at least most will. Long range is cover, just not great cover, as long as you don't also try to move. The morale of moving weapons teams is lowered for inability to fire back, and you are more likely to draw the fire when moving.

If you see a unit with a sideways "sneak" order, understand that is "cover panic", a particular reaction to being shot in the open. Do not try to give them faster orders in a different direction. If the "sneak" is going to get them to good cover in 10m, let them do it. Otherwise, halt them and do not give them any move order. They can fire back if they have a target, just sit still for a minute otherwise. Keep them in command if at all possible, so they can rally as they sit.

Takes some work and some prior planning. And sometimes you may still get "caught" making a move that was premature or wasn't safe. But that needn't be a disaster, if you don't panic but react sensibly as explained above. Naturally, if other units can suppress the shooters or get them "off" the heavy weapons, do so.

[DaffyDuck]

Thanks for all the help JasonC. I'll be using it in my next battle. I've started BCR and I rolled up an assault over very hilly terrain. I will organize fire support groups to cover the advancing infantry as you described.

If you don't mind I have another question for you. The map I'm on features a very large hill near the center of the map. I got down to view level 1, walked up to the top of that hill, and you can see everything from up there. There's even a nice gradual slope up my side of the hill. I thought, man I'm going to march tanks and artillery up here and rain all sorts of trouble down on the enemy.

But then I thought, wait a minute, won't my guys be very exposed up on top of that bare, treeless hill? Doesn't the enemy only have to sprinkle a little artillery up there to render all those units useless (except maybe tanks)? Still, it's a great spot to look down from and in my gut I want to take it, I just don't know how best to use it. Do you (or anyone else for that matter) have any advice for me?

[tracer]

Great job on your web site, and darn good comming from someone who hasn't wargamed much,

[JasonC]

Big bare hills are tactically interesting terrain, but two edged.

First you have to see if it is defended, on the near side. A half squad scout or two needs to get within 175m of the crest on your side. Because there might be hidden trenches ready to use the wide LOS the hill provides, with delaying HMGs in them or the like.

It isn't too hard to clear those out, though. Most of your heavy weapons and tanks will be able to see them if they are on the near side, and only a few defenders will fit in them. So you get a many on few and suppress them. Nobody farther back in the defense can help. You just stick to the near side, and after the trenches are plastered with HE, send up infantry to clear them out.

Humans typically abandon the near side slope for exactly those reasons. Maybe a delaying unit or two, to see what is coming, but nothing serious. The main defense can be expected on the far side of the hill - the famous "reverse slope".

Because there the same factors are working the other way, with the addition that you've got to move to get there. Only a few attackers can fit on the crest at once. Your front to back spread means only some of your guys face the whole defense. Which can include trenches near the crest, and guns and heavy weapons and tanks farther down in bits of cover, or up the next ridge forward. Everybody set up to see the same hilltop. They have cover, you don't; they have everybody shooting, you don't.

So just running up to the top of the hill with your main body isn't such a good idea. A half squad scout can go there, to spot any bunkers or tanks in the open. It may draw fire, but if so just withdraw. If you sneak the last few meters just over the crest, you won't have far to go backward to break LOS, so you should live.

Then you have to look at the hill differently. Not as a spot, the top, that sees everything. But instead as a big LOS obstacle, that blocks long views from one side to the other. As a roundish hill rather than a linear ridge, you can manipulate this blockage in your favor.

You go partway up, but below the actual crest. Then circle around to one side. As you round the hill, your LOS "footprint" changes gradually instead of all at once, like it would going "over the top". Your view "sweeps" the defense position from right to left (or vice versa). Anything not far enough off to one side can't see you yet because the hill is in the way.

So you are using the hill as a *shield*. You want to take on just a little of the defenders at a time, from range. As you silence some, you circle farther. You can back off if you encounter too much fire by retracing your steps, or by descending the hill to the side, to cut LOS.

Now, a smart defender can just wait in hiding until you are farther around, and a bigger portion of his defense can fire. You can avoid that by trickling units off the side you've reached, to pass the hill on one side, staying in the low ground.

Your scouts go that way. If they draw fire, the guys on the hillside support them. If not, they reach and uncover defending positions in turn. Basically, you attack only half the defense by going around only one side of the hill. You can probe both as a feint and to pick the better route if you like. But going both ways in strength would just let all the defenders fight you effectively, instead of only half of them.

Your reserves, in the meantime, are completely safe on "your" side of it, just by staying off the crest. If you think the defense is weakened enough that you can outshoot anything he's got left, then you can put some tanks up near the crest. But that is a finisher, not an opener, if you've got the option to circle the hill.

If from the shape of the hill or ridge, you can't find such a route around it and have to cross the crest itself, realize it is a very dangerous operation. It is like pushing into a planned ambush zone. You better bring a lot of firepower, and in robust forms (like tanks). And they all need to crest together, or 1-2 shooters will be able to kill each one in turn the moment it comes into view, without you getting much in the way of reply fire. Smoke can help, masking half of the defenders, say, while you leave the other half clear and outshoot them.

I hope that helps. Naturally, many of the details depend on terrain and force specifics.

[Eric Alkema]

Also a tempting place to put an FO. Of course, because of that, your (human) opponent might sprinkle some arty on the hilltop hoping to bag your FO.

[JasonC]

FOs do not belong in open ground. He said the hill is bald...