105mm Howitzer?

[76mm]

I have a question about the German 105mm howitzer, which is available as a support weapon and in the Wespe in CMBB.

My question is why there is no 105mm howitzer FO available? I find it hard to believe that they weren't used in an indirect fire role...is the 105mm artillery FO indistinguishable for CMBB purposes from the missing 105mm howitzer FO? Seems odd given the artillery/howitzer distinction for FOs of all of the other calibers...

76mm

[flamingknives]

Same gun, AFAIK. It's possible that the gun/howitzer distinction includes things like differences in blast and battery organisation, rather than just nomenclature.

[Guest Mike]

The Germans didn'[t have a 105mm gun....well not one in any significant nubmers.

So the 105mm FO is the 105mm howitzer FO.

[Zalgiris 1410]

This may be so Mike, but they actually did have a 100mm or possibly a 105mm field gun usually in one single battery in some of their heavy 150mm howitzer battalions, especially in Panzer Divisions, though I think also in whole battlions as Korps or Army assests. I have read about them (at least from Raus including in the Luga bridgehead) as the only other answer that the Germans had along with 88mm Flak for dealing with KVs in 1941. I would like to have those in CMx2! Anybody else?

[ July 24, 2005, 07:45 PM: Message edited by: Zalgiris 1410 ]

[Guest Mike]

Yes they had a 100mm gun and it was occasionally used in Russia but I don't think it saw much service anywhere else - the carriage was the same as the 150mm but hte barrel was much longer - I have some data on it.

That's why I said they didn't have many!!

So it got left out of CMBB like many other weapons used in marginal numbers.

By all means I'd liek to see it in CMx2 - but that wasn't what the question was about!!

[Zalgiris 1410]

Mike I agree that they didn't have all that many of them but I consider them an important assest in the German arsenal especially in 1941 and 1942 to deal with heavy Soviet Tanks. They used them in emergencies to be sure but I think when they were they had an effect similar to 88mm Flak in a tank killing capacity.

Sorry for being off the topic but to my mind it is related in the sense that if CM has 105mm Artillery spotters but only 105mm Howitzers availiable for on the map what would be the effect of them as actual guns against tanks?

BTW CM has 28mm Heavy Panzerbusche ATRs in it and there were exactly only 183 of those made in total! Also there are the Recoil-less guns and the 42/29mm ATG I don't think they made many of those either.

[76mm]

Thanks for the responses! Not a big deal, but does anyone know why the 105mm FO is called an Artillery FO rather than a Howitzer FO? Flamingknives suggests that is just a nomenclature issue, which makes sense. Thanks again for your help.

TMR

[Guest Mike]

Where did you get that only 183 28/21mm squeeze bores were made??

I think there were a few more than that - they made 500 of the 75-55mm version later in the war IIRC, and that was considered only minor production!

The 28/21 was used in fairly significant numbers in Nth Africa, where it was fine agaisnt fairly lightly armoured British Cruiser tanks, and so is a fairly significant requirement for CMAK.

Edit: My bad they only made 150 of hte 75/55mm SB - see http://orbat.com/site/sturmvogel/GermWeapProd.html unfortunately it doesn't include the 28/21mm, but it does include the 105mm K18 gun - more were made than I thought, and max production occured in 1944 with 700 - maybe 1700 total?

[ July 25, 2005, 06:22 PM: Message edited by: Mike ]

[Zalgiris 1410]

Originally posted by Mike:

Where did you get that only 183 28/21mm squeeze bores were made??

The 28/21 was used in fairly significant numbers in Nth Africa, where it was fine agaisnt fairly lightly armoured British Cruiser tanks, and so is a fairly significant requirement for CMAK.

Alex Buchner, mind you we've had problems with him before although I think I have other sources on a total production number of 183 for 28mm / 20mm Panzerbuchse, I'll look but I am pretty sure of that figure.

I don't doubt that they were very effective in North Africa against lighly armoured British Cruiser tanks, in fact I know they were used there. But what is 'used in fairly significant numbers', Rommell at times only had 35 88mm Flak and they were used extensively against British tanks, no one doubts that. But that is not a case of them being 'used in fairly significant numbers' now is it.

Thanks Mike for the link, really great.

From it I agree that there were about 1700 or so K 18 105mm. this figure is more than the combined totals for:

42mm / 29mm conical PAK 41: 313

75mm L G recoil-less gun: 653

105mm L G recoil-less gun: 528.

My understanding is that the 105mm K 18 often referred to as 100mm :confused: were usually in the third Battery of heavy Artillery Battalions in Panzer Divisions for their greater range. They were also found to be the only other gun able to deal with KVs (and no doubt Matilda IIs) along with the 88mm Flak in 1941-42. The 105mm K 18 were there and were used in this way just as these other guns that are in CM, including the 183 28mm / 20mm heavy Panzerbuchse.

I don't have a problem with them being in CM at all. That said, in CM game terms, I don't like the tungsten only guns (no HE) or the smoke plume from the recoil-less guns, (gives away firing position to much) and with no protective shield either!

[Guest Mike]

I suspect another reason for the squeeze bored being in CM is that they were tactical weapons - the 105mm K18 was a long range artillery piece little used tactically.

Although as you said they weer able to handle KV's in 1941, and IIRC there are a couple of accounts of them doing so - indeed I think there's a scenario somewhere that has 105 LeFH's instead of K18's because eth K128's are not in the game.

IIRC it was called "100mm" for the same reason the British 77mm in the comet is called a 77mm - to differentiate it from another weapon of exactly the same calibre - in the case of the 77mm it is a slighly shortened 17 pdr and has exactly the same bore.

I know I have some data on the K18 and I'll try to remember to have a look at it tonight.

[Zalgiris 1410]

Yeah that's all fine Mike I have learnt to live without K 18s in CM so far accepting the reason that they were more of a support weapon than a tactical one. I would of cause like to have them to depict when they were used tactically or as a fancy item and having them in my order of battle, in the same way that you can with the other small production guns etc. That said the 105 leFHs were only used tactically in emegencies themselves, after all they certainly were also meant to be an indirect support weapon to be sure.

[Stalin's Organ]

Hmm...I've got some info on hte K18 from the WW2 "Fact File" series by McDonald & Janes.

According to it the K18 entered service in 1934 as the standard medium arty pice, but was "too heavy for towing by horses and too light for its modest shell weight" and was gradually relegated to the coastal role where a sea marking shell was introduced.

There was a modification the K18/40, which got an extra 2000m range, but it wasn't accepted until a few were produced in 1943 as the 10.5cm schwere Kanone 42.

This doesn't tie up with those web page figures at all, so who knows...

[Guest Mike]

A account of a 100mm in action in the AT role can be found at http://www.geocities.com/pentagon/quarters/4635/battles/kamenewo/battle_kamenewo.htm - it's not very detailed, but the use of the 100mm and 105's in hte AT role is intersting.

This was an action involving the 4th Tank Brigade - an elite Russian unit made up of instructors from Russian armoured schools - it was the 1st unit to receive the "Guards" title following this action and a successful attack against road-bound elements of the 4th Panzer Division.

[Andreas]

Originally posted by Stalin's Organ:

Hmm...I've got some info on hte K18 from the WW2 "Fact File" series by McDonald & Janes.

According to it the K18 entered service in 1934 as the standard medium arty pice, but was "too heavy for towing by horses and too light for its modest shell weight" and was gradually relegated to the coastal role where a sea marking shell was introduced.

I don't think that is correct. AFAICT the gun stayed in service with the Heer throughout the war, either in mechanised formations or in Heerestruppen specialised artillery Abteilungen.

[Panzer_M]

found a lone 105mm leFH in The TO&E of a 1945 Feldersatz Battalion

[JasonC]

The 105mm FO certainly represents leFH firing indirect, those were by far the most common artillery pieces in the German park and fired the overwhelming majority of the missions.

The 105mm gun (kannon, much longer barrel) was a longer range piece that specialized in counterbattery fire. It was too light to be particularly effective at this but was used throughout the war for want of something better. The Germans used a variety of 150mm guns in modest numbers as well, particularly earlier on. Later some of those were still around, and the 170mm became the standard heavy long range piece. But neither of these were produced in large numbers, and the 105mm guns stayed because of it.

The FHs were meant to throw HE at the enemy front lines rather than his rear areas. The 105s and 150s did the bulk of the firing, at such targets. There were modest numbers of 210s above division (they had been much more common in WW I). Rockets provided the other significant higher echelon artillery arm. Both the 210s and the rockets were also meant to hit front line targets, not rear area ones.

There were no 105 guns in the standard TOE of the infantry divisions. There was one battery, 4, in the panzer and SS divisions. Battalions of them at corps and army were assigned deep fires by arkos, along with 150 and 170 guns. Sometimes these were dribbled out as individual batteries. For an important operation there might be a couple of these battalions in a corps, all told. In normal times an infantry corps had none.

In 1941, the 105 kannons were pressed into direct fire roles to kill KVs, in much the same manner as 88 Flak. If you want to simulate them direct just use 88s. Standard 105 howitzers could work against T-34s and were used for it regularly. The early model T-34s are vulnerable even to 105m HE, and 105mm HEAT kills even late models easily. (The US was still knocking out T-34/85s with 105mm HEAT in Korea). By the time 75mm PAK were available, 105mm howitzers weren't needed as part of direct fire gun-lines, but were still pressed into gun fronts at times because they were regularly available.

The 105mm gun (kannon K rather than FH) was called "10 cm" rather than 10.5 cm to help avoid ammo confusion, but was a 105mm piece in reality.

I hope this helps.

[Bone_Vulture]

Originally posted by JasonC:

If you want to simulate them direct just use 88s. Standard 105 howitzers could work against T-34s and were used for it regularly.

This has always intrigued me: did howitzers that were meant for indirect support role have the sights necessary for direct fire ready?

[flamingknives]

Proabably a hold-over from when guns were often in the firing line. Considering that the cost of direct-fire sights is significantly less than that of the piece, it makes sense to include them. Even modern howitzers, especially the towed ones, have this capacity.

[JasonC]

Indirect sights are more sophisticated than direct ones, not the reverse. It is easy to use them for direct fire. They might be marginally harder to use or a split second slower, but nothing you'd actually notice watching the engagment. For things like common ranges, they just put chalk marks on gun carriage, and the like.

[Guest Mike]

Aren't indirect sights usually nothing more than a non-magnifying telescope that gives you a set bearing on a marked point that's been surveyed - then you dial up elevation and traverse to hit an indirect target as calculated by the battery officers.

AFAIK most mediaum calibre and soem heavy guns & howitzers retained dedicated direct sights, or at least provision for them.

[Zalgiris 1410]

Thanks Mike for the link, excellant enough depiction of the 105mm K18 in ATG role. Pitty about the typo / translation errors, so I'm not actually sure if the action refers to one single gun or battery, but no bother.

This example provides a good example of why I don't like using 88mm Flak to represent 105mm K18s, they are spotted and knock out too quickly by those 76mm tank guns, I was hoping the K18s might last longer to be effective as in this example.

Mike the link gives the K18 stats as 32 pounds and 835 m/s, great to know, is this correct and do you have any other info such as weight, etc?

Also thanks to Jason C for the clear exposition, but I think the 105mm K18s were extremely effective in the ATG role from my reading when in the exceptional instances they were used, esp 41-42. Your summery corresponds to what I was saying earlier in this thread, 1 bty of 4 K18 guns in the heavy Btln of each Panzer Div and as Btlns at Korps and Armee level.

[Stalin's Organ]

Yes heaps of other info - let's see.....

Length of piece: 5460mm

Length of rifling: 4252mm

Weight travelling: 6434 kg

Weight in action: 5624kg

(note that the 150mm howitzer on the same mount weighed 5512 kg in action)

Elevation 0-48 deg

Traverse 64 degrees

I saw another work on German arty this weekend that mentioned that many of the 10cm Kanone's were transferred to coastal protection roles where "their great weight" (or words to that effect) was not such a problem.

[Zalgiris 1410]

Thanx Stalin's Organ beautiful that was what I was hoping for, I can now imagine K 18s being dragged by a six horse team, hmmm, put a battery in every German Inf Div, nice thought, hey! :cool:

[Zalgiris 1410]

From a thin book on Panzer Grenadier fighting techniques:

75mm leIG 18

Caliber: 75mm

Length: 0.9m

Weight: 400kg

Range: 3550m

Projectile weight: 5.45 or 6kg (12 or 13.23lb)

150mm sIG 33

Caliber: 149mm (5.9inch)

Length: 1.65m

Weight: 1750kg

Range: 4700m

Projectile weight: 38kg (83.79lb)(HE)

105mm leFH 18/40

Caliber: 105mm

Length: 3.31m

Weight: 1955kg

Range: 12325m

Projectile weight: 14.81kg (32.66lb)

105mm K 18

Caliber: 105mm

Length: 5.46mm

Weight: 5624kg

Range: 19075mm

Projectile weight: 15.14kg (33.38lb)

150mm sFH 18/36

Caliber: 149mm (5.9inch)

Length: 4.44m (36 had a muzzle break whatever redution that means)

Weight: 5512kg (36 about half this & towed in a single load)

Range: 13325mm

Projectile weight: 43.5kg (95.9lb)

170mm K 18

Caliber: 172.5mm

Length: 8.529mm

Weight: 17520kg

Range: 29600mm

Projectile weight: 68kg (150lb)(HE)

210mm Morser 18

Caliber: 210.9mm

Length: 6.51m

Weight: 16700kg

Range: 16700mm

Projectile weight: 121kg (267lb)(HE)

At a quick glance I would like to raise questions regarding ammunition interchangeability between the different kinds of guns with the same calibers, esp here for the two 105s and the two 150s . Also, while not here there were as mentioned above earlier in this thread 150mm (149mm) long barrelled Field guns as well! So were they interchanable, by degrees or totally not at all? From the different weights of projectiles it doesn't apair so, but I thought that they ought to have, at least the IG/FH 150s anyway. Please can anyone explain the reasons for this to me?

Related to this I was wondering about the use of the same round or at least the same AT round in say PAK 35/36 L45/37mm and the Rhinemetell L57/37mm AAG. This holds for the German 20mm guns in their usual AA veriety with the guns mounted on the Pz IIs and PSWs, which BTW were L70 and not L55 as in CM. Same again for other counties weapons such as in the case of Hotchkiss AA and Puteaux AT L72/25mm guns, since AFAIK they are made with the very same gun berrel.

Hmmm, would the 75mm leIGs ammunition not be compatable with the 75mm leFG 16 or the mountain gum veriety. How about the 105mm mountain Howitzer and the 105mm leFH, is the same ammo used in both? May be not, since I think that the Mountain Guns & Howitzers were of Skoda construction, although that reminds me that there were Skoda 105mm & 150 Field Howitzers which the Rumanians were equipt with. I now am also wondering if the all the Skodas were compatable with normal German ammunition for the same caliber guns & howitzers like how Czech rifle and LMG/HMGs were with German 7.92mm x 57mm rounds?

:confused: :confused: :confused:

[ January 03, 2007, 08:40 PM: Message edited by: Zalgiris 1410 ]