Sigrun Posted September 20, 2006 Share Posted September 20, 2006 Originally posted by undead reindeer cavalry: Sigrun, the problem is that no tank unit has massive tank duels every day. most of the tanks lifespan the tank is not fighting enemy tanks. often tanks are lost because of other things than enemy tanks. this is especially the case with Tigers. for example Schewere Panzer Abteilung 508 had a kill-ratio below 2:1 in Italy. most of the Tigers were destroyed by the crews during withdrawals. Schwere Panzer Abteilung 502, in which Otto Carius served, was an example of another end of the spectrum, as it had a total kill-loss ratio around 13:1. the statistical average really is somewhere around 5:1 and 6:1. this average is not the average of how Tiger Is performed against T-34/76s in tank duels. that average would of course be a lot higher, likely somewhere around 15:1 - 20:1. but it is not contradicted by the fact that by average a Tiger got to kill 5 enemy tanks before it was lost (not necessary lost to enemy tank fire). you and Jason are arguing about two very different things and there isn't necessarily any contradiction between what you both are claiming. at least as long as neither of you are trying to apply statistics to something which they have nothing to do with. That might be a good point mate. I most certainly am talking specifically about tank duels. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JasonC Posted September 20, 2006 Share Posted September 20, 2006 Did they all blow up driving across the street, without the enemy every worrying them? Did they run out of gas on the highway and get abandoned like Aunt Mabel's Oldsmobile without the enemy having anything to do with it? Noooo. On 4 July, there are 102 Tigers in 4th Panzer Army. 97 are operational. Not 25. There is not problem having them all ready for the coming offensive. On 11 July, one week later, 15 are operational, and on the 13th it hits 10 - with the SS panzer corps having all of 4 running. Gee, did anything happen in the meantime? Oh right they were all driven over minefields into the largest PAK front in world history and brawled with several thousands T-34s. But enemy action can't have had anything to do with it, no sir. Must have run out of gas. It is just absurd. It's a tank. It isn't Jesus frigging Christ. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andreas Posted September 20, 2006 Share Posted September 20, 2006 Originally posted by Sigrun: Vapid is it? What, like your's and others' asinine assumption that every single one of the 1200 Tigers on the EF was deployed simultaneously, with it's own crew? I assume no such thing. But go on inventing strawmen, you are doing well. Not as well on the facts front though - still batting 0. Regards Andreas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andreas Posted September 20, 2006 Share Posted September 20, 2006 Originally posted by Sigrun: If 1200 Tigers killed 12000 T34s amongst them, averaged out that's ten each. Of course I know some had a bigger share than others, wasn't that taken as read, considering we're talking about averages? Originally posted by Sigrun: John's post finally brings us back full circle in a way, to my original contention, that any Tiger was good for at least ten T34 kills, averaged out. Originally posted by Sigrun: That might be a good point mate. I most certainly am talking specifically about tank duels. No you are not. You are either a liar, or monumentally stupid, on top of batting 0 and being a Nazi fanboy. And you seem to think those reading your drivel are stupid. But as we say in Germany, one should not draw conclusions about others based on oneself. If that was your idea of a tactical withdrawal, it failed. Regards Andreas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hensworth Posted September 20, 2006 Share Posted September 20, 2006 Originally posted by stikkypixie: I think the reason why grenade bundles en mines rarely seem to miss is that they are placed on to tank during a close assault. Same goes for demo charges. Molotovs are actually thrown so there is a higher chance of missing. In actual fact the Panzerwurfmine was meant to be thrown (hence the name), while the molotov essentially was not. The Soviet AT molotov is not the same thing that you see people throwing at the police in a riot on TV. They contained far more effective stuff like thermite and smoke generating substances that went into the ventilation system and forced the crew out. They were used in exactly the same way as other handheld AT devices : they were smashed up close against the tank from close quarters, preferentially on the engine deck. But what we see is the PWF getting a 100% kill rate while the molotovs appear to be mainly there for comical effect. It's not unusual to see one launched several tens of meters up into the air and landing a hundred meters from the target when the squad is only 10 meters away. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sigrun Posted September 20, 2006 Share Posted September 20, 2006 Originally posted by Andreas: </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Sigrun: If 1200 Tigers killed 12000 T34s amongst them, averaged out that's ten each. Of course I know some had a bigger share than others, wasn't that taken as read, considering we're talking about averages? Originally posted by Sigrun: John's post finally brings us back full circle in a way, to my original contention, that any Tiger was good for at least ten T34 kills, averaged out. Originally posted by Sigrun: That might be a good point mate. I most certainly am talking specifically about tank duels. No you are not. You are either a liar, or monumentally stupid, on top of batting 0 and being a Nazi fanboy. And you seem to think those reading your drivel are stupid. But as we say in Germany, one should not draw conclusions about others based on oneself. If that was your idea of a tactical withdrawal, it failed. Regards Andreas </font> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hensworth Posted September 20, 2006 Share Posted September 20, 2006 Originally posted by Sigrun: Sgt Kelly, the captured T34 does better than the soviet T34 because the German crew is supposed (rightfully) to be superior to the Soviet crew. We are not talking about overall performance, including spotting targets while buttoned, firing at them and knocking them out. In this respect better performance by the German crews is justified because the Germans replaced the optics on their captured T-34s. What I'm talking about is purely the acquisition of the target by the TC standing in his hatch (as represented in the game by a target line appearing and the turret beginning to turn towards the target). Unless you're going to contend that the Germans had consistently better eyesight, there is no reason why the German TCs should be better at spotting enemy tanks than the Soviet ones. If you're going to maintain that this is justified, then can I ask you if the Germans should also be deemed better spotters of enemy tanks than the Americans, the Brits, the Australians ? Should a green German crew still do better than a Soviet veteran one, just because they are Germans ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melnibone Posted September 20, 2006 Share Posted September 20, 2006 Originally posted by Sigrun: Listen up, moron, while I repeat what I've already said, so that you can have no further excuse to abuse me by calling me a nazi...I despise the nazis, what they did and what they stand for. But you do like their uniforms don't you? Wittmann, being taller, surely got more kills than Carius? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Battlefront.com Posted September 20, 2006 Share Posted September 20, 2006 This is a ridiculous pissing match. I'm shutting it down. I also suggest that some people take a course in basic statistics. I did, and nearly flunked, but at least I grasped the basic concepts. Fortunately, Charles is a lot better at math than I am Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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