Assaulting with conscripts....

[Garand51]

Hey guys I am doing an operation in CMBB...its 1941 and as the soviets most of my infantry are conscript troops. My mission is to retake a railyard. This requires me to assault dug in German infantry..most of them are regulars. I am not the best CM player but I do know my rules. I am spraying that damn trench with MG fire and covering fire from other units...and as soon as the conscripts take some type of fire..they break. Any suggestions? I know there a lot of people much better then I am here.. thanks!

PS I have no armor just 76.2mm guns which i am using as well to cover then trenches..

[Sergei]

It's always difficult to give advice on situations that you don't see with your own eyes. But as for conscripts... well, if they have plentiful ammo, use it! Try to spend as much of the ammo as you can before starting any human wave attacks. Concentrate that fire so that you might rout defending squads.

[JasonC]

First thing to remember is that fire takes ground, not movement.

Second thing is that the right move order when expecting to be shot at is "advance" - which greens can do if in command, but conscripts cannot use.

Third, "human wave" in the first part of the move is almost as good as "advance", though the command delay is much longer. But later in a long move, they will accelerate to "run", which is extremely vulnerable, the worst actually.

So, first ask why you are trying to move in the first place. If the enemy can shoot you, you can shoot them. If you can't hurt the enemy at the range involved, how much is he hurting you? Next, greens should lead, in command and using advance. Last, if conscripts have to move in the open under fire, plan it well ahead of time, and use a *short* human wave order - like 200 meters at a bound - and one aimed not at the enemy location, but cover at a better range from which to shoot.

Avoid bunching up. Fire effects anyone within 25 meters of the aim point. Higher quality or in cover, this isn't so big a deal if the fire is light. But in the open with conscripts, it is enough to cause panic. So maintain your intervals, do not "pack" them in.

The best "formation" is "blob" - amorphous groups, 2 up and 2 trailing or beside the HQ. Not all on line - that puts the guys at the ends too far from the HQ. When someone is slowed by fire you want to still be in command range throughout the minute.

Keep higher HQs - company or battalion - in a second line of commanders behind the fighting force lines, to pick up stragglers, rally them, and feed them back into the fighting positions. Usually, just falling behind the pace is enough to get the fire off you and onto somebody else.

Last key thing - slow down. It isn't a race, it is a pain absorbing contest. The enemy's ammo will not rally. Take his shots at longer range and in better cover, not at point blank in the open. And get your own licks in back, by standing and firing rather than trying to move every turn.

Lower quality infantry attacks work by gradually "melting" the forward enemies with firepower, and running the more distant ones low on ammo. Gradually.

The more your support weapons can do the better, but do not panic and fire at poor targets just to try to get the fire off your own men. You can't get the fire off your own men, they have to "take it". What you can do is turn every 76mm gun minute into a pinned or broken enemy shooter. The same for an 82mm mortar minute, or a pair of minutes from a pair of 50mm mortars firing at the same target. Use the Maxim MGs to keep pins on units already hit by HE, to prevent them from rallying.

When you do fire with the conscripts, don't play around with tickling fire at long range, a unit apiece. Put a whole platoon to an entire company on one guy and blow him to kingdom come in a minute. Get another enemy shooter the next minute. (Enemies already heads down, put one MG or single weaker squad on - don't blow your ammo on already pinned men). If the range is too far to serious hurt them - over 150m or so typically - move if you have the morale for it, and hide if you are in cover and don't. (To get time to rally).

The biggest mistake new players make in these situations is to think it is a race to get their men out of the open or to close to right on top of the enemy, and rush too many guys at once. That just makes them "come apart" against shooters all still up and firing with plentiful ammo, shooting close range into open ground. Doesn't work. Don't push the men harder than they want to go. Slowing down gives your own fire, and rally, time to work their magic.

I hope this helps.

[Bannon DC]

Keep up the fire. Conscripts are slow to pick up targets on their own, so make sure they are shooting at something during your command phases. If the target is going in and out of direct site, use area fire.

Pick a platoon commander with good moral and combat bonuses for the actual attack. Company COs are useful to rally troops that break.

Spread your squads out as much as possible. Any close shots will send your men to the ground even if the actual target is a nearby platoon.

Avoid factors that pannick troops... like getting tired, out of command, etc.

When you do actually charge the trenches or enemy position, send as many units as possible. Count on most of them falling back. Don't worry about the end position... for example, go ahead and send three or four units for the same crater because most of them won't make it.

EDIT, Added: When charging, use the pause delay in order to spread your men out. Pause every other unit by 20 seconds or so. This is important to avoid the units dropping to the ground as other nearby units take fire. Don't worry if the order delay is 60 seconds or more.

Use the move and hide commands. Make your conscript hide at the end of his move so they have better cover and are less likely to get fired on. Unless they are right next to an enemy unit they are unlikely to fire at the enemy anyway.

Bring in an NKVD unit behind them and threaten to shoot them if they retreat. That will strengthen their courage.

[ April 22, 2007, 07:03 AM: Message edited by: Bannon DC ]

[Cuirassier]

This should be useful. A primer that shows how to attack with conscript infantry supported only by field guns and mortars.

A Conscript Battalion Attacks

[Garand51]

rock out guys thanks!

[Broompatrol]

JasonC already said it.

but to keep it real simple.

1)You don't have to stab the enemy, just make them run away or die in place. So get to a good shoot spot. Don't try to overrun the enemy.

2)panic isn't so bad as long as they aren't getting killed.

3)Consider your conscript's panic as part of their routine. what I mean is: accept they will panic and be able to adapt to it. Your job is to "manage" your guys by getting them to gradually scoot to a spot where they can shoot at the enemy. And that was already explained previously by using leaders to rally them.

I have learned more about using infantry by using green and conscripts than more experienced units. I played some of the band of brother based scenarios and although elite units are fun and can run really far it is easy to get them all killed real fast because they are less likely to take cover while getting shot at. But in the scenarios where I had to attack with the greenies and conscripts I found I had to play more intelligently and use my combined arms in a more integrated fashion to make it possible to keep my guys going. I found that I could suffer less casualties, I just had to be more patient.

[Der Alte Fritz]

You should also play through the Russian Training Scenarios posted at www.blowtorchscenarios.com

[jtcm]

I don't know if anyone else has this sort of experience, in pure infantry assaults, with conscripts or better-- I apply the precepts, faithfully: set up weapons group, scout, move in bounds, weather long range HMG fire. Aha. enemy found. I set up firing line at 175m, blaze away, concentrating whole platoons on single squad, with HMG support. Minutes pass. Enemy squads go down, I place HMG fire on them to keep them pinned. I move forward to timidly. The clock winds down. When the game is over, I discover, to my dismay, that the enemy has lost one or two men per squad, but nothing much. For instance, the com-cam 1 scenario in TPG, 1941 German opposed river crossing (I tweaked the scenario to replace conscripts with regs): by the end, I usually have two full plts in cover, as fire bases, and one plt across the river, in cover-- all three platoons blazing away, with HMG and 50mm mortar support-- but all this barely makes a dent.

The solution must be to get closer-- not to actually bayonet or overrun enemy positions, but to get some elements within grenade range. That, after all, is how the German handbooks prescribe it-- with half-squads of LMG support fire and SMG assault and grenade elements. But tricky in CMBB

[Cuirassier]

jtcm,

The solution is to get closer. Shooting with entire platoons and companies against single squads is important to get the enemy heads down, and to fix him in place. However, as you found out, infantry and MG's at range cannot demolish enemy positions, but only suppress.

Thus, you need to close with the enemy. This does not mean fire until you think he is suppressed and then mount a bayonet charge. It means your infantry should be creeping forward. All your infantry should be moving, just not at the same time (2/3rds up and shooting, 1/3 doing short advances to next piece of cover)

The goal is to have the enemy thoroughly pinned from using the tactics you have described. You want to keep closing to lessen the range, while a squad or two should get into grenade range of the enemy, while avoiding melee combat (30-40m away). And this was indeed practiced by the Germans tactically, and by all other armies as well once they became tactically adept. The general maxim is that rifle and MG numbers are needed to suppress while grenade and SMG numbers are needed to route and kill.

It is also useful to infiltrate squads or platoons around fixed enemy positions to cut off their retreat. Thus, when the enemy is broken and runs, you can easily cash in his morale collapse for dead men.

It is also important to remember the basic combined arms matchups. If you have responsive enough artillery or numerous HE chuckers, use them to plaster enemy concentrations and then mop up with the infantry. Only lean on the infantry as much as you have too.

I hope this is useful.

[Lanzfeld]

Originally posted by Der Alte Fritz:

You should also play through the Russian Training Scenarios posted at www.blowtorchscenarios.com

I just started to do these training missions and I love them.

I am, however, really stuck on mission 110. It is simple really. Take my green russian platoon and advance on the flag while facing a single german MG. How in the **** do I do this? I have tried 8 times and my platoon always ends up routed. I use the cover as best I can but there is not much. I try to supress and advance but my boys can never lay down enough lead to supress the MG. I even flank left to shoot down the length of the trench and it doesnt pin the MG. I space my men, I keep them in command unless they route and run to the dumbest places.

Now these training missions are there to teach us how to use these russian troops? Has anyone played this training mission (110) and beaten the MG? I mean I just cannot crack this nut! HELP!!!

I know all the tricks... I would like to hear from someone who can beat this scenario consistantly. Jason C, are you there? This is your baby.

[ April 30, 2007, 08:17 AM: Message edited by: Lanzfeld ]

[Der Alte Fritz]

Hi

Yes it is possible to beat this scenario. You can do a search on the forums under "Russian Training Scenarios" and this should bring up all your answers as you are not the first to have travelled this road of discovery before. I have got a lot of them in a word document which I can email if you want.

cheers

[Lanzfeld]

Thank you Fritz,

I will search and yes, I would love whatever you can send me. My e-mail is in my profile.

This is interesting as after 12 attempts I am certain that mission 110 is NOT beatable.

SCHOOL ME!

[Lanzfeld]

After extended play time with this mission (110) I have determined that its goal is to show how a green russian platoon, no mater how well it is managed, is no match for a single MG. Fine. If I change the platoon to a regular I can beat this mission. Anything else is just freakish luck.

Not the best lesson Jason C, but I love the training anyways...I commend you on all the work you did.

[Lanzfeld]

Yup...thats it.

Change my platoon to regulars and the mission is a good learning event.

Perfect. Maybe Jason C's original vision was this platoon but regular? Works much better.

[Lanzfeld]

I found an even better scenario.

Just change the german from regular to green in the editor and put him in the trench facing the russians.

This way you get to command green troops (no HQ bonus) and beat this setup consistantly with proper tactics. When you keep em in command and advance in short, staggered bits then you overwhelm the MG.

I am sure this is what the battle (lesson) should have been!

[Bannon DC]

Try this one if you want something a little off beat but still worth while for a basic conscript picnic:

Conscripts and Cluster Bombs

It's fun and you will get the basic training needed for dealing with conscript attacks.

Good luck.