Help for Citadel Schwerpunkt Please

[markl]

Possible Spoiler Citadel Schwerpunkt

Even though I have the 2 full games I still go back to the Citadel Schwerpunkt scenario in the demo game as it covers the one aspect of the game I am not improving in.

Infantry tactics I am slowly coming to grips with but this type of scenario has me completely beat.

When playing against the tanks I place the guns on what I hope are reverse slopes in the middle and rear of the map with infantry opposite to button the tanks.

The tanks can out range the guns easily so I have to wait for them to get close. I use infantry to get them buttoned as they come over the hills but only get internal armor flaking most times, then the tank kills them with one shot. (I can only get front and side shots in before the guns are spotted)

There are so many tanks I can not isolate them easily, if one gun gets a flanking shot and kills a tank, another tank comes over the hill on the other side and kills the gun.

I have even tried to win with no fog of war and double my forces (shame shame) but still end up with the same result.

Any help would be appreciated. I do not need to know how to win the game, just a few hints would help.

[markl]

Thanks for the reply. I am trying the reverse slope approach about half way down the map.

I am only playing against the AI so my enemies are all tanks, no infantry. The problem there is so many tanks. When I get a flanking shot on one and kill it another comes up behind my gun and kills it, or I get the internal flaking armor message then the tank kills the gun.

I will keep trying till I find out how to beat this one.

Thanks again.

[Amedeo]

Markl,

keep your KV tanks in reserve near the end of the map and use them only as a last ditch measure firing from enfilade.

Distribute your 45mm units 3-4 guns groups. Place those assets behind crests, hills or, better, at the rear of woods. Your goal should be to plink on German tanks from the rear/side aspect not at very short ranges but at 500m or so. At those distances the tanks will spot you with much more difficulty, especially if you're hidden in woods.

Use the MGs for early warning (since your guns are in reverse slope positions and are able to overlook and control only narrow sections of the map) and to button up tanks just before starting firing with AT assets.

To disrupt enemy advance place your tank hunters team near the likely avenues of approach (but still in cover), maybe with some ATR support and try to have them engage in close combat. Probably you'll end up destroying only one tank and being chewed up, but it's important to avoid that the Panzer rolls forward keeping coesion and an uninterrupted line. It will allow your AT guns to engage them a platoon at a time.

I think that, overall, the most importanti thing is to read carefully the map and study where to place your guns. The first time I played the demo I got creamed, but with time I managed to inflict serious losses on the foe, to the extent that no Panzer survived long enough to battle with my tank reserve.

Regards,

Amedeo

[markl]

It is a good point to keep the tanks in the rear, every time I try to bring them up they get creamed.

Most of the kills I have made so far have been side shots. I will just have to practice more with the reverse slope and hiding the guns better. I must admit I have been mainly engaging with the guns at close range because they don't seen to get a kill at long ranges easily.

I will try a few more infantry maps then come back to it again.

Thanks for the replies.

[JasonC]

That scenario is reasonably hard as the Russians if you fight a human opponent. But against the AI, you should be able to win handily. I lost 8 men plus 2 captured with 1 gun KOed, took out 9 tanks and disabled 2 more, and kept all the flags.

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The AI has definite weaknesses. It is not nearly aggressive enough and has no real sense of time pressure and what it must accomplish by when. It does not know enough to clear out every area before proceeding. It turns to the nearest target without worrying about other threats. It has no sense of its ammo limits or the need to use things for what they are best at. It passively reacts to spotting reports instead of actively planning scouting actions for tactical reasons.

The German side has strengths in the scenario, of course. If you make no use of the AIs weaknesses and instead simply confront the oncoming mass of armor as weapons bear, the quality and number of its tanks will roll over your positions in sequence. Even if you understand the capabilities and limits of your own forces, you can still lose if you make no use of the limits of the enemy's (here, especially the complete lack of infantry and other support). But this one you should win against the AI simply because of the AI's poor command ability.

Start with an analysis of your own forces and their strengths and weaknesses. The 2 KVs are heavily outnumbered by the enemy armor. They are also outclassed in quality terms. The Pz IVs can kill them at 1500m. The Pz IIIs need flank or point blank range with 50mm AP, but also have moderate amounts of APCR ammunition available that can kill through the front aspect out to 750m. All their guns are more accurate and higher ROF.

As for the Panzer's protection against the KVs, the Pz IV turret fronts are vunerable at range and the Pz III hull fronts start to get vunerable at 500-750m. But in both cases those are matched by the range of their effective replies. Also, the Russian ammo tends to underperform its listed penentration numbers with "shell broke up" results. At the lethal ranges vs. the Pz IVs, the KV isn't likely to get hits. Of course, they are also heavily outnumbered.

Vs. humans all of those things would make the KVs pretty vunerable, but AI command can make them useful again. Just keep them out of sight for a long time. Do not engage at range. Concentrate the ATG effort on the Pz IVs. Go for isolated trailing tanks still up on high ground (or left behind immobilized) when others are out of LOS in lower areas. Engage at times when the bulk of the Panzers are facing the wrong way to deal with ATGs. Hunt up to a crest with both, and reverse again by the following minute at the latest. What you want from the KVs is to pick off a couple, and to still be alive holding the riverbed area at the end.

The main defense obviously must come from the 45mm ATGs. You have already discovered their main weakness - they can't kill the Panzers from the front, and at close range they get taken out easily by massed tank fire, many on few. You must instead make use of their two great strengths - stealth and the overall ammo supply you have with so many of them. They also have a bit of APCR ("T" ammo), which helps at the shorter ranges.

To kill Panzers, you want side shots. That range does not matter nearly as much as the facing. Getting enough side shots against a smart human player might be tough, but against the AI is should not be. You just play "tag". Meaning, somebody shoots to attract attention, and after the Panzers all turn that way, somebody else hits them from another direction. You can multiply the effect by letting units get bypassed, opening up from the rear. In other words, do not think about *stopping* the Panzers, but instead about "inviting them in".

The other units are marginal aids, but have duties to perform. The HMGs are your eyes. They should not hide, to keep full spotting ability. They can button Panzers at 300-750m range. Hide once they get closer. They will never get full ID. One HMG team should be placed with each ATG position, to spot for the hiding guns. Full IDs dramatically increase your guns' willingness to use T ammo.

The ATRs also button tanks. In addition, they accumulate shots seeking gun damage and track hits. They will tend to make the AI unduly cautious. And they can play "tag", attracting attention to turn tanks the wrong way. When shooting from side or rear, you will remain unspotted (beyond a sound contact) even at 200m range. From the front with many spotters, 300m is a safer distance. Fire with several at once to generate multiple confusion sound contacts. Alternate minute of fire with minutes of hiding to make those sound contacts disappear. You can deliberately fire from closer ranges if you want to "sacrifice" an ATR to "turn" the Panzers.

As for actually penetrating with ATRs, the best shot is from directly behind, at the Pz IVs in particular, at 300m or less. But that is not essential. The volume of the fire is the main thing. As for placement of them, the back side of the forward cover areas are good, and the bits of rough ahead of the stream bed.

The tank hunter teams will be lucky to damage one tank. Understand that only the AT grenades are likely to be effective. Molotovs rarely do anything even if they hit. These should have 20m covered arcs, hiding - you are unlikely to get any shot if you have to move. Do not commit suicide with them if the tanks pass by too far away. They can still kill crews dismounted by ATG fire. The side areas of cover forward are the natural place for these. The center bit of scattered trees that the road runs through is a deathtrap, avoid it.

What you want the THs to accomplish is to allow ATRs and ATGs set up on the backside of the forward cover to live, bypassed, instead of being cleared out by the first pass of the Panzers. THs ahead of them can encourage the Panzers to go around instead of through, and thus leave the ATRs and ATGs farther back in the same bits of cover unspotted.

The ATGs should be placed in groups of 1-3 guns. Greens should get positions just ahead of the stream bed, woods on left and rough on right. Concentrate the T ammo at that range - some in the forward "bypass" gun positions is also useful. A few guns can go farther back, on the higher ground of the right rear. Low ground positions can cover the streambed if you like, but you should be able to stop the Panzers sooner. As an optional "insurance policy" if they get into the streambed area, one position lower is OK.

Then the critical thing is the use of the 45mm's full ammo supply, and of their stealth. Understand that the Panzers will only get sound contacts at ranges of 600-1000m, while side hits at those ranges can be effective. Closer in, you need a flat looking side shot with at least "low" kill chance reading. You only need about 1 minute's worth of ammo for that type of engagement. You want to "burn" most of the AP at longer ranges while still sound-contact only.

Then hide, using the last of the AP for closer shots. Do not open up again if it looks suicidal, unless they are literally going to run right over you and so spot you anyway. In that case open at 100m, hopefully with T ammo. Remember the tanks will change facing in less than a minute when a close range duel begins, and if several tanks have LOS you will be KOed rapidly at full ID ranges. If you can distract the tanks with a different shooter, even the cases where they are running right over you can be made a favorable exchange.

Once out of AP, use the HE the same way the ATRs are used. Toss all of it, seeking gun and track hits, and as distraction for the guns that still have AP. A single 45mm has 50 ammo - overall you've got 600 45mm, plus 600 ATR rounds. That's a lot of gun damage and track hit chances. Even shots with no chance of a penetration become important when you hit each live tank with 100 of them over the course of a battle. To live long enough to take most of them, you just need to pay attention to "sound contact" ranges.

You should also understand that the German tanks are HE limited. A human would use it selectively on ATGs, and rely on the MGs more against everything else. Humans also scout more aggressively, sending a Pz III close (close also makes MGs dangerous), to get full IDs while most hang back ready to kill with HE whatever opens up. The quality of the spot depends on the nearest unit. But the AI will be content to hang back at 500m and toss HE at marginal targets (e.g. an HMG team, an ATR). Which in a 45 minute battle will rapidly run it out of HE.

You should now be able to kick the AI's tail in "Schwerpunk". Humans are a different matter.

[markl]

Thanks for the reply JasonC,

It seems I have been trying the wrong way. I have been trying to use the infantry to button the tanks, then trying to engage from the front and sometimes the sides to stop the tanks from advancing at all. I sort of picked a line and tried to stop the advance from that point.

I will put all these new ideas into practice, and should come up with a win soon.

Does any one know of a table that lists the tanks and big guns that could be used as a reference as to the relative strengths and weaknesses of each?

In the forum most people discuss the various merits of each vehicle and gun, but as a beginner I do not know often to what the name refers to.

It appears unless you know the various attributes of the unit you are up against you can make a lot of tactical errors.

A table listing or giving cross reference to what can kill what at which range or angle would be helpful to beginners like myself.

Thanks again to all who replied.

[demoss]

Markl,

See this thread.

There's more data in there than you can shake a 75/L70 at.