Steve C Posted February 11, 2003 Share Posted February 11, 2003 Posted by Wachtmeister on the SC World Championship Ladder thread: "Warning to future defenders of France: Don't forget (like I did !) that France falls, no matter what, if Paris falls. The change in v1.06, designed to combat excessive withdrawal of French units to the UK, also prevents any defense of France in depth......" I'm engaged via PBEM against my first human opponent, and he has essayed exactly that strategy [evacuating the French] against me. He did a Dutch gambit, but I was able to break part of his line and also take Antwerp in two turns. He also left two reduced carriers dangerously exposed in the channel and I sunk one with a sub and the other with a cruiser (with a coup de gras by air). I thought he would defend France, but next turn, I was shocked to see his French forces vanish with the "Operate" sound effect. When I approached Paris, it was garrisoned by an army, one corps next to it and everything else was gone. I did not take Paris that last turn as most of my infantry was too far back to come up in time. So Wachtmeister meant that if Paris fell, all the other French troops sill in France would disappear off the map ? I assume that he would have to use transports and not operate them to England, or can they be evacuated either way ? And does some other penalty accrue (other than giving up France too soon) ? It would seem that my failure to take Paris at a stroke means that he might get away with it (or at least 5-6 units out of the two Atlantic ports). Is this a viable strategy ? Personally, I don't think I'd do it - want to make the Germans work for it and knock off a few units. But on the other hand, why not live to fight another day ? [ February 10, 2003, 10:08 PM: Message edited by: Steve C ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerseyJohn Posted February 11, 2003 Share Posted February 11, 2003 Steve C & Wachtmeister, Sounds like he operated three units to Brest then transported them next turn to England. They can depart Brest , transport to the harbor at Manchester , offload and move one hex all in the same turn. If he started earlier he might have transported six units over to the UK that way. He might also have transported some from Antwerp to London, offloaded and moved them in the same manner. I'm not crazy about the practice but do it when playing the Allies. Once the Germans break through nothing will save France for very long and I'd rather have those units, especially if it involves an HQ and tank group, survive for later action. Sometimes they're the only thing foiling a quick Sea Lion . If the Allied player doesn't offload them in either Britain or a British territory (Malta, Gibraltar, Egypt, etc.,) they vanish when France falls, so it has to be done all the way. I'm against the maneuver but will use it if it's available. The best suggestion I've read on this, sorry but I forgot who made it, was to have the computer arrive a figure of escaped French troops when France falls and the UK gets an MPP bonus while specific French units in Briton or UK possessions disappear just like those in France. This would prevent the exocus (why bother!) and make the Battle of France more hard fought and realistic. [ February 10, 2003, 09:44 PM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wachtmeister Posted February 11, 2003 Share Posted February 11, 2003 My goal was the opposite, of French withdrawal, in that I wished to hold France for as long as practical, thus upsetting the Axis timetable. It was working well too. I was sitting fat and happy[i thought]with a French Army built up to about 1.5 times its "at start" strength, with a solid, mostly double, line from the channel through Paris to the Swiss border. Also, the way from Italy into Southern France was blocked off with 3 units. When the Franch Army disapeared, German forces were sufficiently weakened, that British units evacuated France safely. Or, maybe the Wehrmacht just tripped over all those dropped French rifles. Henceforth, Paris will be defended with an all around "hedgehog" type defense, even at the cost of one or more outlying cities. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kenfedoroff Posted February 11, 2003 Share Posted February 11, 2003 On rare occasion, I have had French troops at sea (as transports) survive the the fall of France. Maybe French transports get the same Free French survival percentage as their warships? Or a bug? Ken Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liam Posted February 11, 2003 Share Posted February 11, 2003 Point is about French Retreat, if it turns out to be a surprise, it's a waste. That valuable stall time is much more important to me. Twice I've had that used. One I lost<with Polish readiness> and another I am at this point:: I am not a great player like some here but someone used this tactic with me then invaded France during my beginning assualt on Russia. I was shocked!!! I was thinking maybe he'd made air units you couldn't possibly retreat all your French units to England like that! Regardless, he kept it a secret and afterwards I took every minor but Turkey and I have tech 4 ind tech 4 fighters...amongst other things that will soon pay off not only but I have an italian navy and a growing tech 2 uboat fleet i destroyed all the french that landed and massacred the Allies on their attempt to land. Though it cost me my push in Russia..Russia is stalemated and not a threat to me... I will soon have a rival navy to the Allies... and maybe I'll invade Turkey and just leave Malta Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve C Posted February 12, 2003 Author Share Posted February 12, 2003 Okay, next move and my opponent (another new player) said that his evacuation was a disaster. After he bailed and left only the army in Paris and a corps next to it, I had so many German ground and air units free to encircle Paris and pound it to submission that I took France the very next turn. Due to FOW, I didn't see it, but I have to assume that most of his transports then vanished like Cinderella's coach, drowning his Frenchies. He couldn't possibly have gotten everyone out of Brest in one turn. So the strategy apparently backfired. But perhaps there is some machiavelian strategm afoot here and he is trying to lure me into a disastrous Sea Lion. We'll see. Anyhow, it does seem to be a risky strategy. Thanks for the input guys. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackbellamy Posted February 13, 2003 Share Posted February 13, 2003 it's not a risky strategy in and of itself, but it can be depending on the number of french units you are trying to evacuate you can always evac a couple of armies with zero risk - but if you try to save the whole lot you can mis-time yourself into oblivion Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve C Posted February 14, 2003 Author Share Posted February 14, 2003 Originally posted by blackbellamy: [QB you can always evac a couple of armies with zero risk - but if you try to save the whole lot you can mis-time yourself into oblivion [/QB]Yes, that's exactly what happened in our game. I think he thought Paris would hold for a couple of turns with the army in there but I took it in one turn. Only his French HQ and one army escaped, the rest vaporized. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KDG Posted February 14, 2003 Share Posted February 14, 2003 You can always check the reports to see how many units are still alive. I didn't realize this was available at first. Lets you know if Sealion is feasalble or not. One mistake people make with France is not having the unit entrenched their. You should also keep one or two Corps adjacent to it to keep it from being completely encircled until those units are also killed. If you can save an HQ plus 4 units, you have your self a nice fighting force. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carl G. E. von Mannerheim Posted February 14, 2003 Share Posted February 14, 2003 Originally posted by Liam: Point is about French Retreat, if it turns out to be a surprise, it's a waste. That valuable stall time is much more important to me. Twice I've had that used. One I lost<with Polish readiness> and another I am at this point:: I am not a great player like some here but someone used this tactic with me then invaded France during my beginning assualt on Russia. I was shocked!!! I was thinking maybe he'd made air units you couldn't possibly retreat all your French units to England like that! Regardless, he kept it a secret and afterwards I took every minor but Turkey and I have tech 4 ind tech 4 fighters...amongst other things that will soon pay off not only but I have an italian navy and a growing tech 2 uboat fleet i destroyed all the french that landed and massacred the Allies on their attempt to land. Though it cost me my push in Russia..Russia is stalemated and not a threat to me... I will soon have a rival navy to the Allies... and maybe I'll invade Turkey and just leave Malta Annhilated the AllieD Invasion...... Heh...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve C Posted February 14, 2003 Author Share Posted February 14, 2003 Originally posted by KDG: You can always check the reports to see how many units are still alive. I didn't realize this was available at first. Lets you know if Sealion is feasalble or not. Excellent point, KDG ! That does help to eliminate the guesswork. I'll remember that one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
General Billote Posted February 14, 2003 Share Posted February 14, 2003 "But of course we must evacuate...If only to get revenge on Vichy traitors when they least expect it." The trick is to evacuate with an HQ and five units ( the command limit, preferably the air unit, an armor unit, two corps 'Algerian and Mid-East and an army.) A pretty effective force under the command of a general, especially after building up experience in N.Africa. If you use the foriegn legions as two of the units your over-all defence isn't comprised too much. After all, your going to fall very quickly to any experienced axis player, might as well have an effective surviving force. Viva La France! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerseyJohn Posted February 14, 2003 Share Posted February 14, 2003 General Billote Great to see you again! As always sound advice given in a straight-forward manner by the Leader of Free Frenchmen Everywhere! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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