Napoleonic War w/ SC

[Narayan Sengupta]

Hello Everyone,

I have been toying with the idea of creating an expansion pack for SC that would allow wars from the period of the French Revolution through the Franco-Prussian War.

Using Carl Von Mannerheim's idea, Germany would stand in for France. So that part is easy.

Armor would become Cavalry.

The problem is the following classes:

Carriers

Tac Air

Bombers

Rockets

I can't decide how the players or AI would handle those within the context of the above mentioned era. Any thoughts? I just can't see how it would be doable.

[Oak]

Take out carriers, air fleets and bombers altogether. One important missing component is artillery. Rockets could be used for that.

[Edwin P.]

I have been trying to create a scenario based on Acient Rome and found that the AI does not build ships, but it will build air fleets unless you increase the tech level of air fleets, bombers and rockets to 5. Which makes it too expensive for the AI, at least in the first turns of my custom scenario.

Also with Rome as Italy, I can't give it the good generals that it historically had, but the Italian AI, in control of Yugoslavia, Greece, Turkey, Syria, Iraq and Egypt, along with part of France does play a much more aggressive game than it does in the 1939 Scenario.

In this custom scenario I also keep Russia neutral so that it does not enter the war. I jsut have to play test it some more and then work on the graphics.

Hubert for the Future,

Editor Suggestions

1. Customizable Deactivation of Unit Types

2. Option to turn off technology

3. Option to customize unit combat statistics

4. Option to add new HQ units and customize HQ statistics

5. Customizable Countries - So I can create Egypt, Persia, and Carthage with their own capitals

[ July 20, 2003, 02:06 PM: Message edited by: Edwin P. ]

[Narayan Sengupta]

Oak,

That's not possible, but it's a good idea.

Edwin,

What happens on subsequent turns?

And what prevents the ancient Roman player from buying those?

Thank you,

Narayan

[Night]

Guys guys! It seems every other day there is a new post about this type of topic! Why don't you just accept the fact that the SC editor/engine is just to static to change time periods and countries.

While I would DIE to play any of the proposed wars/campains/etc. that you have thought up and I have thought of, It can't be done effectivly with this version of the game. You can't even change sides for the main countries in the game!

Anything that comes close would still be quirky and be almost impossible to play with A.I. that's for sure. Keep in mind things in other wars did not follow the pattern of events SC has... for example, some minor countries in the game might have delcared war on other countries in that time period, but it won't happen in the game so it woun't make any sense.

[Edwin P.]

Narayan

I just finished one game of my Ancient Roman Scenario and the Barbarians never purchased any Air Units or Rockets (they were set at tech level 5). They did purchase lots of corps/armies and HQ units. In a previous game where the Romans(Italy) were AI controlled they did not purchase any air units. In both cases I assume that this is because of 1) High Cost of Air Units at tech level 5 and 2)Rush by both sides to build garrison units in response to defend threatened cities.

Note: I had to update the scenario to essentially have it be the Russians (with Russia controlling Germany / UK vs Italy. This means that the Romans have to advance very quickly else they will be overwhelmed by the Barbarian hordes. Roman counter attacks are limited by the 3 lowrated HQ units that are available to them.

[ July 20, 2003, 07:25 PM: Message edited by: Edwin P. ]

[Shaka of Carthage]

Night

Don't be so negative. Let the creative juices flow among those who want to experiment. While the SC Editor/Engine does have its limits, there are many ways around it. Only question being is it worth it. The Cold War scenario seems quite well designed.

I myself am working on a Roman era campaign using SC, but it won't be anything like SC. If that makes sense.

[Carl G. E. von Mannerheim]

Originally posted by Narayan Sengupta:

Hello Everyone,

I have been toying with the idea of creating an expansion pack for SC that would allow wars from the period of the French Revolution through the Franco-Prussian War.

Using Carl Von Mannerheim's idea, Germany would stand in for France. So that part is easy.

Armor would become Cavalry.

The problem is the following classes:

Carriers

Tac Air

Bombers

Rockets

I can't decide how the players or AI would handle those within the context of the above mentioned era. Any thoughts? I just can't see how it would be doable.

As has been with my Toying with my WW1 Scenario, it seems the only way to make the AI do this is by taking the AI out, that is, playing only against a Human and playing within certain perameters.

Just out of Curiosity, were you referring to my Germany standing in for the USSR in my 1962 scenario?

CvM

[Carl G. E. von Mannerheim]

Edwin P

if you would, please send me your current Rome Scenario, no matter what its balance. With your approval i would like to create a 'Roman Civil War' Version.

CvM

[Oak]

I think you will need to design the game for human vs human play.

[Liam]

don't bother to play SC for Napoleonic Wars? Nah, play EU2 for that!!! Europa Unversalis. Ultimate Nappy ambition scenario

[Narayan Sengupta]

HI Carl,

Yes, absolutely, based on your 1962 Cold War campaign.

I have also been working on a WWI campaign for a while (on and off), but am finally making some decent progress now that I got two additional books.

Narayan

[Narayan Sengupta]

Edwin,

Thanks for the further information. That is good to know.

Shaka,

Thanks for the encouragement.

Night,

Shaka is right. I do realize that there are constraints, but it's still fun to try to work within them since Hubert has done such an oustanding job with Strategic Command.

And if these constrained mods help make you guys happy, then maybe that might give Hubert some ideas for future work that he might consider.

Narayan

[Night]

Making a scenario for periods past WWII, like the cold war, is very possible, but making one in ancient times is way more tricky... and I still think it would be quirky... but I would love to try it out. When you finish any of yours, please host them somewhere

One big problem I see with a Roman version is this, the Roman's had a far more effective war machine in terms of tactic's used by thier Legion's and training etc. etc. While the Germanic hordes and such were not so well orginized, although they may have won in the end, it was a number of factors. The problem is how to represent this difference in NEW unit's purchased by Rome. While unit's the game starts with can have added experience to show this, new ones are just as good as an nmes.

The only solution I could think of, is using research to boost thier effectivness, but there are many problems with this as well.

[Shaka of Carthage]

Night

Very true observation on the effectivness of Roman legions. It also depends on what time period you are trying to reflect.

Generally speaking, the "effective" Roman legions would be the one's you start with. Hence, giving your starting units experience bonuses would reflect that. Newly raised legions, as well as the "eastern" legions, would not be as effective. Eastern could have one experience bar less, while the "new" legions, would have none.

Depending on how you handle the cavalry and skirmishers, it wouldn't be that unreasonable for a newly raised Roman legionaire "Army" to fight on equal terms with a Gallic or Germanic Warband "Army" (ie no experience bars either side).

You are also correct that the AI and the Diplomacy aspects of SC make it "quirky" for the Ancient era. But its still interesting seeing how different people attempt to solve those problems.

[pzgndr]

Editor Suggestions

Edwin P., you should check out the wonderful world of Xconq.

[Narayan Sengupta]

Night and Shaka,

You're right. Not all of the problems can be overcome, but many can simply with suggestions from the great minds that are here.

After reading your feedback on Roman Legions, I'm thinking that Napoleonic may be possible after all, something that I wasn't all that sure about before.

I'll still have to turn Germany into France to take advantage of the alliances and better generals.

Narayan

[Edwin P.]

Bill Macon

Thanks for the link, most interesting

[Night]

A problem I think that is going to be hard to overcome is the map itself. There is far to much of Russia and far to little of North Africa. Charthage is done Zero Justice if it is made to be the force it really was when it fought the Romans.

Also, I think any country that at the time was not so well orginized as Rome. (I.E Germany) Should have it's cities/mines/etc. reduced in MPP value to reflect the obvious difference in the world's most powerful country's economy and social system, and the disorginized, tribal warfare Germanic nation. I have many more thing's and idea's, but I have to go, i'll be back later, discuss

[Shaka of Carthage]

Night

Map does present a problem. Hence, you have to think about the time scale you are trying to represent. Each turn needs to represent somewhere between the existing week to maybe a month (4 weeks). This allows a "campaign" to cover a persons lifetime. You could make a case for each turn to represent three (3) months, but I personally don't like that approach.

I assume you mean the lack of Carthagian MPPs. Don't forget you have the US and Canada out there. Some or all of them could be given to Carthage. Or you could take the Russian approach for MPPs for Carthage.

Italy would need a MPP boost, since France (Gaul) and Germany (Germania) shouldn't be outproducing Rome. See US/Canada/Russia.

If you are going be around the Carthage era, you have to have the Hellenistic monarchies of Macedonia, Seleucia and Ptolemy. Or you could go with Parthia as a counter to Rome, etc. Depends on how historical or playable you want it to be.

Or you could take a different approach and make your setting Late Republic. That would give you the "western" Romans (ie Caesar), "eastern" Romans (ie Pompey), the barbarians (Gaul, Germania and Brittany), Parthia (Iraq, Syria, Turkey(?)). This setting may be easier to balance from a "historical" viewpoint.

Anyway, by being creative in how you use the US, Canada, Russia, even Norway and Sweden, you should be able to balance the various MPPs and factions.

[Edwin P.]

I found that if you Give Russia - Germany, Lowcountries, Norway, Finland, Denmakr, Most of Spain, UK and Part of France and North Africa you have a powerhouse that can duplicate the effect of the Barbarian Hordes by creating lots of Corps and Armies, yet be a balanced game.

The key problem is that Rome as Italy is limited to only 3 HQ units of rather low quality. This limits the number of effective offensives that the Romans can maintain at any one time. In my scenario I gave the starting HQs Experience 4 and the Legions in the border areas Experience.

Also as Shaka said you have to find a way around not be able to create your own coutries and the US and Canada sits out their to give one side or the other an MPP boost, although I set the US to Neutral in my game so it will never enter the war.

[Night]

The first and main problem with Using the U.S and Canada as MPP backup's for the lack of area in North Africa and other parts of the map is this: North America is much farther away and thus take's a longer time get to esp. from Italy, meaning that if you wish to conquer Carthage, you would not only have to invade Africa, you would have to invade North America, ethier that or forget about the extra and most important MPPs in America and not knock the country out of the game. You would need two divided forces in two different area's of the world, and that make's it non-historicaly hard for the aggresser, I.E. Rome, and easy for the defender.

But one way I can see to solve this is possibly to say those extra MPPs in America were lost to the rampade looting and burning that ancient armies were acustom to in ancient warfare.

I feel like I sound like i'm favoring not making these games. Do it, I would love to play, but i'm just argueing to possibly point out some fixable holes

[Narayan Sengupta]

Night,

That's good. This kind of discussion helps, especially since you are being nice about it.

Part of the aforementioned problems might be offset by doing another Carl trick and setting certain American or Canadian MPP hexes as occupied by someone else?

Narayan

[Carl G. E. von Mannerheim]

Originally posted by Narayan Sengupta:

Night,

That's good. This kind of discussion helps, especially since you are being nice about it.

Part of the aforementioned problems might be offset by doing another Carl trick and setting certain American or Canadian MPP hexes as occupied by someone else?

Narayan

Yes, that is the best method, simply divy up the N. American Provences for the different Countries.

CvM

[Narayan Sengupta]

Thanks!

Narayan

[ July 24, 2003, 02:29 PM: Message edited by: Narayan Sengupta ]