Early Allied Strategy

[Norse]

After I shared my Soviet strategy with you guys, I/O Error asked that I find a way to conquer with France as well, so this one is for you I/O Error

I have decided to share my unforgiving and outstanding early Allied strategy with you guys. Be prepared to witness the most awesome and effective offensive in the history of SC!

First, the briefing.

WHAT TO DO

France must disband her navy and build a HQ right away. You must also spare a couple armies and send them down towards Italy. The rest is normal prochedure, just stay alive and don't let Germany conquer you just yet.

Britain, must immediately send a Carrier from Britain down to the mediterranian (in other words, towards Italy).

By the time the carrier reaches Gibraltar, then you transport the French corp in Algerie towards Italy. By now you should keep the two French armies near a French harbour, ready to be transported towards Italy for a quick and decisive invasion. You must keep your two armies attached to your HQ.

In Egypt, you must now send the carrier towards Italy. Don't worry about the other naval units there, you don't need them. If you want, then you can disband them, so you get some extra MPP to build more armies with. This is up to you, do as you want.

Also, by the time the carrier reaches Gibraltar, send the battleship in Gibraltar towards Rome. You will see why in the next post.

[ October 27, 2002, 03:06 AM: Message edited by: Norse ]

[Norse]

THE ALLIED INVASION FORCE IS READY, WAR IS DECLARED UPON ITALY!

Notice the two British bomber units. I bought one extra to make sure that the invasion was successful. Although, as you can see (the white dot on the unit means it hasn't moved), neighter of the British bomber units was used for this invasion. I could have saved up the MPP and bought more armies instead. Ah well, better safe than sorry

INVASION IS SUCCESSFUL, THE MIGHTY ROME HAS FALLEN!

Look at the two bomber units, they have not been used for this attack.

AT THE END OF THE DAY - THE TURN SUMMARY!

BE AWED BY THE MIGHT OF OUR BELOVED FRANCE

Now I have showed you how to do it, now you try it.

~Norse~

[ October 27, 2002, 03:11 AM: Message edited by: Norse ]

[Fubarno]

Norse, I have been working on a strategy such as this after my fiasco in our PBEM game, but my question is, how did the fighter groups near Marseilles assist. Do they have 1 tech advance in range?

[Norse]

The fighters travel 6 hexes, the bombers travel 7 hexes.

So to answer your question, I spent abselutely no, nothing, nadda MPP on researching anything at all. It is not needed. Britain and France only got the technology that they start the game with.

~Norse~

[I/O Error]

Dammit Norse, I was JOKING! But hey, that is a pretty cool plan, with excellent pictures.

[Norse]

Yeah, knocking Italy out with a single move is pretty cool :cool: They never had a chance :cool:

~Norse~

[Gman]

Great Job Norse! Thanks for sharing your wisdom. I hope to try this out sometime soon.

[RicKhan]

Having successfully tried this gambit, my next question was how to stop it as the axis. :confused:

The One Axis counter i've tried is to invade Yugoslavia, and station Air units and HQ to bombard potential invaders/fleets. :eek:

The up side for the Allies is increased Soviet/USA tension and Germans not in position to invade Western Europe quickly.

Norse, Thanks for the color by the numbers example. Keep up the good work!!!

We must be on the same wavelenght. :cool:

[Jeff Heidman]

Gamey. If someone pulled that against me in a PBEM, I would resign, congratulate them, and put them on my "Don't ever play this person again" list.

A pretty "cool" strategy, but one that has been known for some time now, and is 100% reliant on the game system shortcomings, rather than any particularly smart play by the Axis player.

I am guessing that Hubert will address this in the 1.05 patch.

Jeff

[pzgndr]

Is Italian entry historical or random in these games? Historical entry sets up Italy like a sitting duck, although they will start with their full income if sneak attacked and units in the capital will have an entrenchment value = 3. Abandoning allied positions in the Med should prompt early Italian DOW and allow Germany to op move units to Rome. [Does this work for both random and historical entry settings?] Games should have random entry for Italy to make an early allied invasion a risky strategy, otherwise it's not much of a challenge, is it?

Disbanding the French fleet for only 10% value is a dangerous bargain. And stripping Britain of air recon to support an invasion of Italy could prompt Germany to attempt an early Sealion and go for London before Paris. With the French fleet gone, the Brits are either hunting U-boats alone and vulnerable to seaborne invasion, or else taking hits from unopposed U-boats. If an early allied invasion of Italy fails, it leaves them dangerously exposed to the German counter-stoke which will follow. And US entry % will be reduced by allied aggression, which just rubs salt in a self-inflicted wound.

Assuming Italian entry is random, this strategy is a gamble. You either defeat Italy and then go on to win early, or you fail and the Axis goes on to win early. Either way, it's always an interesting strategy to consider.

[Norse]

Originally posted by RicKhan:

Having successfully tried this gambit, my next question was how to stop it as the axis. :confused:

Hey guys

I think the only way to stop this for the Germans, is to crush Poland as quickly as possible, and go head on against France right away. Ignore going after Norway and such, go France all the way, and don't let up until France has surrendered. If the allies even got a second to spare, then they can rotate the 2 French armies away from the German border, and send them to attack Italy. Britain can send the Canadian army, and build more armies herself. Don't let them do this, be at their throats and beat France before the British carrier reaches Italy.

When you see the "France surrenders" sign, then Italy is home safe

This will certainly be very difficult for the Germans, but will it be impossible??

hehehe, is anything really impossible in this great game

~Norse~

[daystrom]

Agreed. Take Poland on turn two. DoW on Denmark in turn two, taking it on turn three. Hit the Benelux (and take them) on turn 5 and throw everything but the kitchen sink (hell throw the kitchen sink as well) at France. I am guessing that this would make it quite difficult for the Allies to pull off this Italian adventure.

As Jeff brought up, I hope it is addressed in the next patch.

cheers,

Ray

[Norse]

Poor Hubert will haveto fix the Italian situation for the third(?) time, hihihi. Poor Hubert, he must feel like :mad: by now, hehehe

Ok, I suggest this. Increasing the entrench value won't help, because the Brits can include a 3rd carrier for the attack, as well as the two unused strat.bomers there (the Rome garrison got an entrench value of 4 right now).

I suggest rotating the corp with an Italian army somewhere, and let the army entrench at value 5. Then we're talking

Although... who knows....hehehehe GRRRR!! :mad:

[daystrom]

Yep, the army might do it. But the Allied player can skip the conquest of Italy (i.e. skip going for Rome) and relieve her of several cities instead. While this does not conquer Italy, it has a very devestating effect on the Axis as well.

Perhaps a mandatory initiative loss for the Allies on an invasion, and having the Italian entry always occur at the end of an Allied turn. I dunno, it is a tough problem.

cheers,

Ray

[ArmenianBoy]

I agree, the Italians should always enter at the end of an Allied turn (i.e. beginning of an Axis turn). This would help a bit on the Italian gambit sleeze.

[Norse]

Sorry, let me reprahse that. Hubert doesn't "haveto" do anything about Italy as it is, as it is pointed out here, it is possible for Germany to smash France and thus save Italy. This should force the axis player to repeat history as well, instead of going onto adventures into Sweeden or something. Let me also add that France counter-attacked the Italians and pushed on them. This have been simulated in other games, so when this is in SC as well, don't throw it completely off. This is after all an "what-if the allies had focused on Italy" scenario.

I'm just saying this so Hubert will be aware of the two sides of the coin. You guys might not like it that way, but war is hell, and Germany didn't really have an easy time in the beginning (or ever for that matter).

What I would really like to see though, as you guys have stated, is that Italy enters at the end of the allied turn. It really sucks to have them enter at the end of the axis turn, and then have this stuff happening to you - without the US penalty

Perhaps leave the Italian unit's as they are, but increase the US penalty if the allies attack Italy?

I have another idea as well. All the nations had militia. For Germany this was called Volkstorm, the British had the Homeguard, etc. What about, when a nation is under attack, then that nation get's a onetime offer to place out one free army? That could help Britain and USSR too. Even if it seems little, I have seen 1 corp stall the German offensive on the east-front in the early stages, so it depends if it is placed at the right spot to the right time.

I'm babbling....

~Norse~

[Henri]

An obvious solution to me is to have a bunch of Italian partisans appear if Italy is attacked before it declares war. After all, look at the political situation at the time. It was the time of the "funny war" when no one was sure if there were going to be a real war or not, and the sentiment against the war in the US was very strong. In addition, such an action by the British would probably have knocked Canada and Australia out of the war. Not to mention giving the antiwar pro-German lobby in Britain a big boost.

Now seeing Britain and France attack ITALY is certainly not going to help alleviate the anti-war sentiment in the US. In addition, 1941 is not 1944, and the Italian peole would not have taken kindly to being invaded by the British and the French at that time.

With the proposed strategy, it's "game over" for the Italians if the strategy works, but if say three or four partisan units appeared in Italy after the conquest, the British would be faced with the choice of keeping a strong garrison in Ialy at the cost of weakening their other spots, which they can hardly avoid, and practically invites Germany to carry out Operation Sealion as soon a s France is conquered.It should also increase the probability of the other Axis allies to join Germany sooner.Russia was not ready for war, so a weakened Germany would suuit them fine and they would use the time to build up instead of attacking Germany (which ids what they were trying to do when Germany attacked them).

In addition, in this case, Italy should not surrender, but a coalition Italian government should be formed in Africa (or maybe Sicily) with control over all Italian fleets and whatever Italian units were left when Rome was conquered. Now the allies have to defend against a possible Italian invasion from Africa, and the BEF in Africa is probably toast.

This should be enough to give the Allies second thoughts...

Henri

[norvandave]

I agree with Jeff. The idea of disbanding fleets and attacking Italy in that way is gamey. You are manipulating the game rather than dealing with what could actually have been done historically.

[ October 23, 2002, 02:51 PM: Message edited by: norvandave ]

[SeaMonkey]

another gamey scenario unveiled, oh well, there are more with their associated counters as well. Congrats Norse, points well taken, at least someone sees the flexibility of SC. Its a game of "What Ifs" in an historical context, simple yet complex.

[I/O Error]

Originally posted by norvandave:

I agree with Jeff. The idea of disbanding fleets and attacking Italy in that way is gamey. You are manipulating the game rather than dealing with what could actually have been done historically.

Quite frankly, some of us play to WIN, not to plod through history and put historical blinders over our eyes.

[Jeff Heidman]

Originally posted by I/O Error:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by norvandave:

I agree with Jeff. The idea of disbanding fleets and attacking Italy in that way is gamey. You are manipulating the game rather than dealing with what could actually have been done historically.

Quite frankly, some of us play to WIN, not to plod through history and put historical blinders over our eyes. </font>

[Madison]

Norse,

That is a very innovative strategy, but very risky. I tried this versus a computer at the default difficulty and it worked like 1 out of 5 times. Sometimes the carriers don't hit or the fighter don't hit or even the battleship. It seems to me that everything has to fall into place for this French Strat to work. If it doesn't, you are way out of position to prevent a disaster. One time I destroyed Rome's unit but could not get a unit to occupy and it was a mess. The AI oped a guy right in and I was done. However when it does work, Germany is through. The entire med is a French lake, and they can easily hold Germany at bay in time for for Britain to keep building and the game is over.

John

[Sol Invictus]

Very clever; yet these type of maneuvers are what I feel is the Achilles Heel of SC. I think most people are attracted to SC because they want to play a historical simulation of WW2 Grand Strategy. Not an exact repitition of WW2, just a game that replicates realistic possibilities. It seems to all come down to the difference between two types of players. One type approaches the game from the point of view of win at all costs by any means that the rules allow. I think this type of player actually enjoys coming up with and playing with very clever, "gamey" strategies more than trying to deal with the real challenges that the major powers faced in WW2. To this type of player it really doesn't matter if it's WW2 or the Boer War; its just a game that needs winning.

The other type of course is the history buff that gains enjoyment from dealing with realistic possibilities that were faced by the actual countries of whatever war. I would never try to use certain moves because they were not possible in reality, but that's just me. Most of these clever moves have to do with amphibious invasions and neutral majors but there are other types.

Alternate history is fine and even the most die-hard historical fanatic would have no problem with history taking a different course but some things are beyond the Pale. That is why I will never play another game without houserules or until the rules are changed. I'm not saying either type of player is correct or superior than the other; just that the two should never play against each other.

Again, very clever move. Every time I think I have seen it all I am treated to another strategy that has no basis in reality or historical possibility. I think some of you enjoy torturing us more historical types with these things. :mad:

[Norse]

Originally posted by Sol Invictus:

(...)

Again, very clever move. Every time I think I have seen it all I am treated to another strategy that has no basis in reality or historical possibility. I think some of you enjoy torturing us more historical types with these things. :mad:

lol

To shock you all on how to do this move is a good thing, because, be honest now, it makes all of you who read this make up your own mind wheter this is a good thing or a bad thing. Some will claim this is not historically accurate, other's will claim that this IS historically accurate, so why can't it be done? This isn't just in SC. Many of you grognards who have played Third Reich and so on, do you remember that "gamey" guy who kept using France to knock Italy out?? I do! Because that guy was me! I placed a Coup in Yoguslavia, and then I hit Italy with both Yoguslavia and France, hehehe.

So you see, any game who tries to historically represent the forces of the nations in 1939, will have the opertunity for France to knock Italy out of the war.

Like it has been said here, this is risky. Yes, it is VERY risky. If the allies fail, then all is not lost like some of you think it is. Just ship the HQ and some armies etc to Britain, and continue fight as Free French. If you are going to say that this is gamey too, then I strongly disagree, Free French had a HQ in the real war. Atleast a battleship counter and some infantery units.

So bottom line is, I make you make up your own mind by showing you this, and that is a good thing. Because now that you are aware of the opertunities in the game, you will make up your own mind on if you like this or not, and thus you can have precise house rules to either allow this thing or not allow this thing.

Let it be said, that Germany is not doomed because Italy is defeated.

Perhaps you guys should simply try this in a PBEM once, two veteran players against each other, and you will see how interesting it becomes. Don't be so easy and just throw in the towel already. It is a challenge, and challenges creates heroes

~Norse~

[RicKhan]

You forgot the Third type of player. One that is tolerate of and a mixture of the 2 types you just outlined.

This player believes in the maxim of "Make Love not War" :eek: Oops wrong one... I mean

"All's fair in Love and War".

He can accept and deal with all kinds of Gamey/historic types of players and enjoys playing for the competition it presents and the shared experience involved.

Sure we all want to win, within our own standards of fair play and honor. And losing is just the lesser form of winning IMHO, where two or more people compete within the same framwork.

SC, is a simple game to understand, and that is a strenght. Coupled with Hubert's desire to make the game more challenging and competitive can only mean a better gaming experience for all.

If anyone is looking for a game to play, with someone who will not ridicule your gamey tactics or historical dogma. Look me up and i'll fit u into my gaming schedule. :cool:

Tennozan@hotmail.com

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