Air Movements

[pzgndr]

Haven't seen this addressed before, but it's been bugging me this weekend while trying to move air units to/from Sweden and North Africa. The regular movement range is TOO short to simply fly across the Baltic or Med except at very narrow points. You can't do operational moves because there's no railroad. You can't transport air units, and I don't understand that, unless I'm not waiting long enough for readiness or something. (How does the US deploy air units across the Atlantic?)

Anyway, we should be able to do regular air movement at double the normal mission range, so that's like 10-12 hexes. More with long range aircraft research. So, if there's still time before the release, maybe this could get looked at.

[Moon]

No sure if I understand correctly what your problem is, but you CAN move air fleets operationally. You seem to say that you can't?

Martin

[pzgndr]

you CAN move air fleets operationally

Yes, but not across water. I found this to be a hassle moving an air unit through Denmark to Norway to support an attack on Sweden, and then back again to Poland. It takes much too long. Planes should be able to fly double the mission range when rebasing. This would permit flights from Sweden to Poland, and from Greece to Libya, rather than lengthy detours.

[Wolfpack]

Originally posted by Bill Macon:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> you CAN move air fleets operationally

Yes, but not across water. I found this to be a hassle moving an air unit through Denmark to Norway to support an attack on Sweden, and then back again to Poland. It takes much too long. Planes should be able to fly double the mission range when rebasing. This would permit flights from Sweden to Poland, and from Greece to Libya, rather than lengthy detours.</font>

[Bruce70]

Yeah, I routinely move the air fleet from Malta to Britain and have had German air fleets in North Africa on many occasions.

[gorski]

The reason you can't op move AF sometimes is your supply/readiness state is too low. An historical example would be the difficulties the American strat bombers had when they flew to Russia or Africa after hitting targets in Germany. Actually, that's not a great example, but it was the best I could do.

Gorski

P.S. Don't expect your air units to fight very well without a major city or HQ supplying them either.

[pzgndr]

OK, understand supply/readiness is the issue for op moves, so I probably wasn't waiting long enough. This also explains not being able to move the air unit off Malta, so once you put one there that's it.

But to return to my original point. In 3R, air units have a combat range of 4 hexes but can fly 8 hexes when rebasing. This makes sense. However, the combat and movement range in SC are the same. Since you can't move and fight air units in the same turn, all that doubling air movement range would do is provide players some more flexibility for moving them without having to use op movement and shouldn't affect play balance. There's got to be an air movement range parameter that's relatively easy to tweak. So if there is time for one more little tweak, this one would be nice.

[pzgndr]

OK, op moves for air units ARE different according to the instructions and I just verified they work fine for transporting across water.

So, no comments about possibly extending regular air movement range? OK. Gunner, continue to scan for the Gold release ...

[Desert Dave]

As originally posted by Bill Macon:

So, no comments about possibly extending regular air movement range?

Since I routinely try to save MPPs by planning ahead and moving Air Fleets without expending Operational costs, I would be in favor of this, except for one thing.

Since there are no requirements that Air Fleets MUST land in cities or air-bases, the rationale for double-movement privileges is not as strong.

Other games that have used this rule, also had strict basing requirements that SC doesn't. You had to locate bases to land in, therefore the extra movement was justified.

I suppose we can think of the OP movement as covering costs for the engineers to establish airfields, and/or convert civilian sites, etc.

[pzgndr]

I suppose we can think of the OP movement as covering costs for the engineers to establish airfields, and/or convert civilian sites, etc.

These should be sunk "costs" for either regular movement or op movement. I fully agree paying for op movement to rebase across Europe is appropriate. But planes which can fly 5-6 hexes round trip *should* be able to fly 10-12 hexes when rebasing. It shouldn't be a big deal to hop across the North Sea, Baltic, or Med. I played allies yesterday and invaded Norway. I could get my bombers over to support, but no fighters because they couldn't reach - and you can't op move until you capture a city. This is just irritating.

Another aspect to this issue is the time it takes for reinforcements and rebasing of air units. That's 2 turns your air unit is unavailable. For blitzkrieg in Russia, you may have to rebase twice to keep up, so maybe it's 3 turns without that unit. This is also irritating.

Those are a couple of reasonable arguments for extending regular air movement some. If not double, at least +3 or +4. Anyway, it's something for consideration.

[Desert Dave]

As originally posted by Bill Macon:

I fully agree paying for op movement to rebase across Europe is appropriate. But planes which can fly 5-6 hexes round trip *should* be able to fly 10-12 hexes when rebasing. It shouldn't be a big deal to hop across the North Sea, Baltic, or Med. I played allies yesterday and invaded Norway. I could get my bombers over to support, but no fighters because they couldn't reach - and you can't op move until you capture a city. This is just irritating.

Bill, you seem to be basing part of your argument on the fact that another game, 3R/A3R, allowed double movement. However, in that game (or others like it) turns were 3 months. The average turn length in SC is 2 weeks, so you are able to move your Air Fleet approximately once a month, or 3 times in that same time span, so in effect you get TRIPLE movement in SC, yes?

You also seem to be chafing at an accidental quirk of the map layout. You can fly across the Baltic or Med as the Axis player, you just cannot fly across the North Atlantic as the Allied player. If we get a larger map in a future version, should we then increase your proposed +3 or +4 re-base number so that you are able to -- JUST reach Norway again?

However, specific to your Norway concern, you could research long-range air early in the game (... I haven't actually counted the hexes from England to Norway, so I'm not confident that this would solve it), or you could bring up your Carrier for air support until Bergen is secured. Or use the Bomber unit -- which could be abstracted to represent air power in general.

I am not sure we should change the rules merely to allow Britain to IMMEDIATELY put an Air Fleet into Norway.

And, we DO have re-basing -- it is called Operational movement. I don't like having to dig into the wallet to pay for this any more than you do, but sometimes it is the ONLY way to get immediate re-basing.

All of this does not address your logical and pertinent question -- why can't an Air Fleet fly as far as its fuel-tanks will allow? Well, in game terms, you have to account for establishing an airfield and reorganizing the fighter wing. Advancing into Russia must take into account the need to set up suitable facilities to receive the planes, such as preparing the captured airfield or building another one.

All in all I must admit that I don't have the same irritation that you do, which doesn't mean that you do not make valid points. I really think that it is a matter of individual game design choices.

[pzgndr]

Fair enough. No need to drag this one out. I have managed to move my air around successfully for the most part despite the minor irritations I've mentioned (and a few misunderstandings.) I suppose the short answer to this issue is to just develop long-range aircraft technology.

A related issue - What about the possibility of transporting air units? This would let us land and establish air support during seaborne invasions. It should be possible to do this. Any thoughts?

[Wolfpack]

Originally posted by Bill Macon:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> I suppose we can think of the OP movement as covering costs for the engineers to establish airfields, and/or convert civilian sites, etc.

These should be sunk "costs" for either regular movement or op movement. I fully agree paying for op movement to rebase across Europe is appropriate. But planes which can fly 5-6 hexes round trip *should* be able to fly 10-12 hexes when rebasing. It shouldn't be a big deal to hop across the North Sea, Baltic, or Med. I played allies yesterday and invaded Norway. I could get my bombers over to support, but no fighters because they couldn't reach - and you can't op move until you capture a city. This is just irritating.

Another aspect to this issue is the time it takes for reinforcements and rebasing of air units. That's 2 turns your air unit is unavailable. For blitzkrieg in Russia, you may have to rebase twice to keep up, so maybe it's 3 turns without that unit. This is also irritating.

Those are a couple of reasonable arguments for extending regular air movement some. If not double, at least +3 or +4. Anyway, it's something for consideration. </font>

[Desert Dave]

As originally posted by Wolfpack:

Actually, there is one hex on England that is close enough to allow your fighters to move across. Not sure exactly which one it is, but I found it a long time ago when I was doing the liberation of Norway strategy.

Do you think this will satisfy him?

Next thing, he will want to know which hex it is that he can use to airlift his sacred planes -- directly from Iraq to Canada!

[MrWinterbottom]

ROFL!! You are bad!

[pzgndr]

Do you think this will satisfy him?

I can't get no satisfaction.