Defeating the Dutch Gambit!

[zappsweden]

I know I am not supposed to tell this, but I am willing to share my newly invented tactics for Axis players that are struggling to get those Allied players out of Belgium.

Dutch Gambit:

Allies take Belgium (in turn 2 or 3) and get some cash but also makes Italy join the war sooner and USA join later than usual.

Allied tactic:

Take Belgium preferrably in turn 2, since Axis will get stronger in the western border when they have finished Poland. If Belgium falls without the french air unit used then sell it and buy a french HQ.

Belgium can be attacked by 2 carriers, 1 battlehship, 3 armies and 2 air units on turn 2. Attack with the strongest units first (armies). The air and especially the carriers are backup (in case the armies fail) so it is best if they do not need to be used.

For example can the allies put a battleship in LONDON SEA PORT (because it enables units to transport and land in France on the same turn), sell the bomber and buy an army! This enables the UK army to do the first attack on Belgium capital and relief the French from the tragic mistake of having a gap in the line when Belgium falls.

Axis tactic:

on the second turn, make sure that the southern air fleet gets transferred west (in reach of Belgium) and MAKE SURE THAT ALL THREE AXIS AIR FLEETS ARE SUPPORTED BY AN HQ.

on the second turn, operate at leist one good unit (army or tank) to the belgium border.

THE RESULT:

If allies take Belgium in turn 2, then axis can attack the hex southeast of the belgium capital with FIRST 3 air fleets, THEN an army or tank, THEN some complementary corps. If axis gets that hex, then they have a foothold behind the river so they do not need to attack at penalty (ground attacking from river, swamp, mountain gives HALF ATTACK STRENGTH).

THE FINE THING IS THAT THE FRENCH ARMY JUST MOVED THERE AND HAS NOT ENTRENCHED.

Even if it withstands the attack, axis attacks next turn with 4 air fleets (since the Denmark and Poland cash enables u to buy another air fleet on turn 3).

When that first hex has fallen, attack the forest hex below it in the same way. Soon you will see that France falls.

The dutch gambit has both advantages and disadvantages but the important thing for the axis is that they WIN THE BATTLES hence build their hq experience and become invincible.

[ February 16, 2003, 06:51 PM: Message edited by: zappsweden ]

[Jollyguy]

Yes, ZappSweden has it right. In my post on defeating I mentioned the Axis counter attacking Brussels if the Allies take it, but meant that hex below Brussels. That puts you in position to retake Brussels, as you have it flanked from a no penalty hex.

The big advantage the Axis have is...HQs. They support their air and land units. Setting up to defend against the Dutch Gambit does cost some mpps in operating costs, but is well worth it.

[KDG]

What do you do when the French take Belgium on turn one? The city was hit with two airs, then a bomber, then two armies. Med air was operated onto south Magniot line.

This happened in my current PBEM game. I had 3 airs & HQ to defend, didn't stop them though. I then pounded with three airs, and Armie, not much damage. I still need to take Denmark and Poland.

I imagine I'll just continue to pound my way through Belgium then France.

Another question.

If you can hit a HQ with 3 airs as opposed to the army in front of it, do you do it?

[ February 04, 2003, 05:14 PM: Message edited by: KDG ]

[Shaka of Carthage]

While this doesn't answer the question that KDG possed, the other option for the Axis is to take the Low Countries on turn 2. Operate units from the Polish front to do it. However, don't do like I did, and play games in Poland so long that Russia gets mad and its readiness jumps!

[HankWWIIOnline]

So what is the purpose of the Dutch Gambit? End a game early and say 'I win'?

Sounds like an early rush strategy so common in RTS's.

[ February 04, 2003, 07:38 PM: Message edited by: HankWWIIOnline ]

[JerseyJohn]

Zappsweden

Thanks for sharing the tactical techniques you've developed.

I don't like the Dutch or Italian gambits on principal, entirely on historical grounds with the Dutch and because I don't think it would have been possible in the Italian case.

All the same, the tactics you've made available contain useful information that can be applied to many similar situations.

[ February 05, 2003, 09:53 AM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ]

[Piumarcobaleno]

Hank, the dutch gambit has 3 main purposes: first, it leaves the fatherland without the plunder from low countries; second, it may give the plunder to the allies (supposed it works); third, it would give the allies a wonderful defence line.

I personally think that this gambit should be tried only against an AI axis, or a player that you believe not too strong; even with this boost, probably you'll have to commit british troops to the continent to let france defend properly, otherwise you deprived germany of some mpps at the cost of 10% intervention from US (let say US would enter 2 or 3 turns later, it makes 360 or 540 mpps, against the 200-300 you will gain from the gambit and the 16 of low countries' city and port (as long as you keep them). Doing so, you DECIDE that your stragegy will be france's survival, obviously you can switch strategy later, but i think that the loss of english troops (or mpps reinforcing raf and navy)would pave the way for the german sea lion. Too, the sea lion can be a boost to your game, if you can make it last 10 or so turns.. What's beautiful with this game is that the "early rush of RTS" you spoke before opens a big number of possible results, outcomes, counters and switches.. hope this helps.

[Shaka of Carthage]

As "P......" already stated (you really don't expect me to spell the name out do you?), its an attempt to limit the MPP's that the Axis get. And if properly supported, it gives the French a beautiful defensive line. But its usually a all or nothing type deal. You have to strip the French Armies from the Maginot and put them in Benelux (oops! Low Countries). You have to replace those Armies, usually with British or Canadian Corps. I've even seen HQ and Air units put there (temporarily), while other units are brought up. And bringing up the Malta Air, and the UK carriers, all of a sudden, the Allies have Air Superiority. Breaking that line is tough, and at best, expensive.

[Piumarcobaleno]

Eh eh, ok Shaka, you are discharged of spelling my name.. maybe italian words just don't fit you

[Shaka of Carthage]

Hmmmm... there was this Italian woman once...

[HankWWIIOnline]

Interesting. Do people actually use this tactic often, or try to? I honestly don't see the fun in trying to crush the Germans early on. And if you fail, then the Germans can take you down even quicker. Sounds like a short game either way.

I guess I enjoy a longer, more drawn out game.

[kenfedoroff]

OK, Now for my two cents.

In Defense of the Dutch Gambit

I have faced the Dutch Gambit as an Axis player several times in SC, and the more I look at it, the more I like it.

The key to defending Russia/Egypt is to stall the fall of France until Nov./Dec.'40 or later.

As far as the Dutch/Italian gambit not being historical, So What?

There are so many unhistorial abilities/events the Axis can (and will) take advantage of, this seems like a non-argument.

(I will, however, concede the fact that Brit. corps walking into ungarrisoned Italian cities upon a DoW is Lamo), but all's fair in love and war.

Most of the threads/arguements about USSR/Allied weakness are related to the defense (or lack thereof) of France.

As a BDN (Brain Dead Newbie) in good standing, I can vouch for the fact that weak, passive play in SC, (or any contest for that matter), will not work against strong players.

The top SC players have proven, with the Dutch Gambit, that there may not be such an Axis favored imbalance in the game after all.

We might even see the Axis bids come down in price when more Allied players start using the Dutch Gambit.

Just wait 'til BDN's like me start using it(whoa, tremble in fear people)

Sincerely,

Ken

[Piumarcobaleno]

Well, the Dutch gambit, along with the italian one, is a risky strategy: it just gives the allies a third option, besides all-out defence of france or long term defence of england.

[SeaWolf_48]

We who have been playing wargames for a lot of years have a big disatvantage over newbies who know nothing of TR and other boardgames that had so many rules that you can't attack here or there until this or that happens. I have to unlearn so many things to compete in SC that it has become a great personal challange to me. That does not mean that I perfer the rules in SC, but it is a change. Possibly there could be two senarios, one open like it is now, and one Historic.

I am learning to live with the Dutch Gambit (it should be the Bulgium Gambit since Antwerp is in Belgium, Holland and Bulgium should be two different countries, not one as now, is this a leftover from Iron Fist? If a hex is 50 miles then Luxembourg should have one hex.). You must, let me repeat, must take Antwerp on the second turn or you loose. That's the way this game goes, you must start transfering several units from the Polish Campaign before she is conquered, if you are the Germans that is. That's not the way a real campaign would be run, but frick history and real strategy and martial tactics, you must unlearn campaign tactics (blitzkreig tactics demanded Air, Artillary, Panzer and Infantry coordinated attacks against the enemy with overwhelming force, superior firepower, till the objective was taken- not draining off troops, tanks, and airplanes before your mission is complete) and learn the mechanics of this game. I know, wa wa wa....

[Piumarcobaleno]

Sea wolf, that's the problem of loving too much in a game. The same happens to me every time I play a paper RPG different from D&D second edition, i always start a quarrel with the master 'grognarding' about "realism" in a game that depicts a world with dragons and wizards.

That's the point, here we have a grand military strategical game, no micromanagement like automatic retreats, airborne troops and so on; so we have to like it like it is, Hubert has made many patches, all very useful, but in this direction.. it's ok to speak of current air power, partisans and so on, but maybe historical limits (sometimes taken from politic, sometimes from economy) are a thing this game can't and don't want to handle.

This doesn't means SC isn't a very very fun game.

[ February 07, 2003, 08:42 AM: Message edited by: Piumarcobaleno ]

[waltero]

I am a big fan Of the Dutch Gambit.

If you are afraid of this move as Axis, do the following; Do not attack denmark on first turn.

wait to see if France invade low coutrys.

if thay do, then declare war on denmark, if you take it over in first turn that you declare, Italy will join fast. if after you take denmark and Italy does not join right away declare on norway then thay will come. once Italy is in it is over for france.

It is a favorite move of mine, as allies,(gambit) if Germany declare war on denmark first turn.

I as allies can hold italy off indefenatly! provided thay attack Denmark on first turn.

Some of you have seen it. and know it to look silly. one has givin it a name. The mad bomber!

what you do is Put malta air in copenhagen move land unit up one, move fleet up headed to denmark.

I always move bomber to malta, to keep italy happy.

with this move and a little luck you can destroy German fleet, Delay attack on the french, and confuse The german player :eek:

as well as throwing everything in front of the Germans! Give them as many targets as you can.

if done right thay will run out of mmp's

move Battle ship in land bridge after allies first move operate air out and move land unit back. sometimes you can land UK corp on bridge as well.

Agianst a pro I would not do.

And

[ February 14, 2003, 04:15 PM: Message edited by: waltero ]

[waltero]

I had just used this move agianst rambo,(other than Doing the gambit) and I had french units in warsaw! I also had four German citys, it twas a cool game. boy did I blunder! (after my computer crashed and he got to move his turn over )

oh well thats the way it goes. Funest game ever!

people play the same old game, try something off the wall sometimes Could of won that 1 FRISS FRASS!!!

[ February 15, 2003, 01:12 AM: Message edited by: waltero ]

[Genghis]

I haven't tried to Dutch gambit yet but will definitely do so next game.

There really should be a game restriction though preventing the Allies from declare war on them.

I'm currently in my first PvP game of SC as the Axis and the Allied player operated the Polish airforce into England and the Allies declared war on Italy like on turn 3 which is really interesting.

BTW, is there even a chance that the Polish air force in England could survive even though Poland falls?

I was surprised that the Allies were even able to relocate that fighter to Britain.

[ February 15, 2003, 07:55 PM: Message edited by: Genghis ]

[Fubarno]

I tried the Polish air force move as a test and it disapears after Poland falls. A waist of mpp's for the operational move cost.

[Shaka of Carthage]

Genghis

Why should there be a game restriction not allowing DOW by Allies on Low Countries? It is a possible "what if" (if you stretch it a bit) and the Allies do take a hit on the readiness numbers for the US.

[Genghis]

Shaka - I just feel that some restrictions need to be placed on the Allies in 1939-1940 when it comes to DOW on other countries.

If nothing else, this should better simulate Allied unpreparedness for the war in meeting the German army head on.

I'm not against rewarding players from trying different tactics to stem the German tide though.

Far from it, I think a player who can overcome these Allied restrictions will be the better player.

Fubarno - ah that's too bad. maybe in SC2, there would be a chance for that air unit to survice and reach England.

[ February 16, 2003, 03:23 PM: Message edited by: Genghis ]

[Twiddle]

Genghis, where you from? I have a friend I have not seen in years who used that alias.

[Shaka of Carthage]

Genghis

Shaka - I just feel that some restrictions need to be placed on the Allies in 1939-1940 when it comes to DOW on other countries.

If nothing else, this should better simulate Allied unpreparedness for the war in meeting the German army head on.

You do have a valid point. The French in '39 scenario, by May '40, have more than they did in real life.

I believe that if the units for some nations were not created within one turn and the movement rates for Corps and Armies were changed (to reflect horse transport), you would achieve the effect of Allied unpreparedness.

[Genghis]

Twiddle - I'm from San Francisco. Sorry I don't recognize your handle though

Shaka - Aye perhaps we just have to wait and see then for SC2.

I think there will be serious rebalancing issues that will be resolved then.

[Liam]

The French Gambit can be beat most times...

Don't rellocate your Germany Army Rnd 2.. Rnd 1 place 1 panzer 1 infantry on the border with the Dutch/as well as 1 HQ at the end of combat with the Poles. Relocate both airs... that are out of range and fire up Antwerp Rnd 2... First with the Air to soften it up then the Infantry straight across, and armor via the ocean hex. and if it's still won't die sacrifice a Corps to the South Hex.. Then occupy the city...

If the Allies place their Air in your way to prevent this, they may stop you. What you've left in Poland will take a few turns to polish off the strong poles. Make certian not to push Russian Readiness if you must back off after taking the Dutch and take Norway/Denmark for the extra money and build up a massive airfleet. Then attack the French! Both from the South and North! If they Pole some sorta Italian Gambit out of their hate if you have extra air! You know where to put it! Make him pay for those Italians Flotillas

Important!!! If they're bold enough to let your 2 subs survive in the N.Sea hide them out folks in somewheres unexpected!!! They're invaluable to an Early SeaLion...to blockade UK ships from hitting German transports!!!