Les the Sarge 9-1 Posted May 23, 2004 Share Posted May 23, 2004 Bush IS a jerk, but so isn't Paul Martin eh. I ain't got time for loving politicians. Only difference between Bush and Martin. Is Bush couldn't say 10 coherent sentences to save his life. While Martin, he's just another banker that knows how to make "himself" money. If he ever cuts ME any slack, it will likely be by mistake. (oh for those that don't know, and I can understand if you wouldn't, Paul Martin runs Canada...for now). We are likely working on that. Now on the other hand. I have no problem with this comment from Rambo. "We pulled Saddam out of a rathole, waxed his sons, & liberated a country. It will take a little time to install democracy. It might fail, but it's worth a try." WMD, who cares if they were ever there (who cares if Bush even lied, hey I am used to politicians ling to me eh). Frankly, the day he went in (Bush), I was only hoping his took out Saddam. Saddam had outlived his time, and that's that. Glad it ain't my troops dying in Iraq though, because a lot of good US lads will die before that country figures out what freedom is. Sort of like trying to teach commies what free market is. And none of my views require religion eh, although, I suppose if there wasn't any religion wrapped up in all this, I guess Iraq would be a lot quieter. Kinda hard to hold a jihad against infidels without religion eh. Kinda hard to piss off jihadis until you shove down their throats they need Christ in their life to be any good. I wonder how quiet the world would be without Christians and Muslims trying to wipe each other out to save the world from each other? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Les the Sarge 9-1 Posted May 23, 2004 Share Posted May 23, 2004 Oh regarding TCP/IP gaming, is it possible to thwart TCP/IP while having an ongoing conversation while the game is running? Just wondering? I mean, I heard it was possible to cheat in TCP/IP, but I personally would like to see someone play their turn, as well as keep up a running conversation, as well as sneak out of the game to cheat all at the same time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terif Posted May 23, 2004 Share Posted May 23, 2004 Yes, this way to cheat in TCP is only a theoretical possibility, but simply not practical applicable in a real game: causes crashes (2 sessions)or at least lost connections, nobody has the time to do it during TCP and even if it would work it is simply noticable for the opponent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zappsweden Posted May 23, 2004 Share Posted May 23, 2004 1) The "two instances" cheat DOES work. Rambo and I tested it and it did not crash. The cheat takes roughly a minute to do. The cheat is NOT noticable for the opponent and a player who spends 10-20 hour on a long SC game could easily do a few FOW cheats (not every turn necessarily) taking 1-3 minutes each and left unnoticed. 2) There is also the "two computers in same room" cheat. Anyone with 2 computers in same room could even leave the second computer with the FOW explored state to peek at before making crisp attacking moves on the main computer. Surely a cheater would do any of the above 2 cheats just in critical times (A few naval moves spotting the coast or a few air moves spotting enemy air) and before important attacks. Turns that take 10 minutes would not be noticed if someone used extra 1-2 minutes and nothing says they have to use it every turn. Especially in the stages where enemy has alot of units FOW'd (After Paris fall, both sides have most of their units out of enemy sight) because how can I know if he moved russian corps, operated, bought units, did research or used PBEM FOW cheat? If someone hacks into my bank account and steal my money I do not care if that hack only work sometimes. I care if it is POSSIBLE. Rambo and I proved it was possible. If there is a fault proof way to do it everytime, dunno. [ May 23, 2004, 09:38 AM: Message edited by: zappsweden ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terif Posted May 23, 2004 Share Posted May 23, 2004 1) Sometimes it might work, but usually it causes SC to crash or at least to disconnect (perhaps this depends on the computer system) - something your opponent will notice when it happens too often 2)You can notice it if your opponent moves or not even if you cant see it directly. Simply move the window around and during any enemy action the window freezes for a part of a second. So you know he is active (you dont know what he does, but you know he is in SC doing his turn). If he uses the cheat, he is inactive during the first few minutes and this you will notice if you are suspicious and take care of it . If your opponent starts moving after you sent your turn, then it is simply impossible that he used this cheat. In the end: Surely it is possible to cheat in every computer game if you really want to do it and are willing to spend the effort to find a way. But winning by cheating is worth nothing and lastly you only cheat yourself. SC is fortunately nearly free of cheats and cheaters, at least this is my experience from over 500 games with probably more than 100 different opponents. The - not so - amazing thing is, the cheating issue usually comes up when someone has a burnout syndrom (or simply dont like SC any more and wants to make it bad) and search for an excuse why he stopps playing The fear of cheating seems to be overexagerated. As far as I remember any time someone accused somebody else for cheating in the last years, it came to light that it wasnt the case and the accuser simply didnt know something about how SC works (e.g. disbanding units=getting some mpps back, how combat works, spotting ranges, how to use your brain cells and memory to remember where the enemy moved his units to...etc). But in the end its pretty simple: If you dont trust someone, then dont play him again - thats the best way to avoid possible cheating. Looking for ways how to cheat and then posting it as a "How to do" guide for everyone is certainly not a good one - not for the game and not for the honest players. [ May 23, 2004, 09:44 AM: Message edited by: Terif ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jon_j_rambo Posted May 23, 2004 Author Share Posted May 23, 2004 Terif -- I understand how somebody could take initiative and make crisp attacks after resuming games that were several days old! There would be no need of 2-computers, 2-games running, etc. Why write things down between saved games, just reload & practice. Seriously, you've got to be kidding me Terif. In those 10+ minute turns, how would we know if someone used 2 minutes for FOW sniffing??? [ May 23, 2004, 09:43 AM: Message edited by: jon_j_rambo ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jon_j_rambo Posted May 23, 2004 Author Share Posted May 23, 2004 Terif --- You have some good points, but are mixing them with the main subject. Not playing suspect people, blah, blah, blah, has nothing to do with this subject...that is a Les-the-Sarge type comment, which I agree, but not on subject. Yoda said The - not so - amazing thing is, the cheating issue usually comes up when someone has a burnout syndrom (or simply dont like SC any more and wants to make it bad) and search for an excuse why he stopps playing So are you trying to say I just made this up & it's about timing? No not true, I thought of this idea when asked some questions by a newbie. It is independent of burnout, a lost game, etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terif Posted May 23, 2004 Share Posted May 23, 2004 Rambo: Yes, it is possible that you dont notice it if someone cheats you. There are certainly ways to cheat out there you cant notice. The problem of possible cheating exists since the first computer game . Lastly its a matter of trust: If you trust your opponent or not. If not, then dont play him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jon_j_rambo Posted May 23, 2004 Author Share Posted May 23, 2004 Terif --- We have different ideas when it comes to sharing information. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terif Posted May 23, 2004 Share Posted May 23, 2004 Yes, there we are different : I dont think it is good to make things public that you cant improve this way, but in contrary if they are known to a lot of people increase the danger that someone cheats you - and harm the game . If someone doesnt know how to do a bad/forbidden thing (cheating) then even if he would be willing to do it, he cant do it . [ May 23, 2004, 10:05 AM: Message edited by: Terif ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zappsweden Posted May 23, 2004 Share Posted May 23, 2004 Hmm, I guess if I used my 10 minutes waiting for opponent moves constantly scrolling the map then I would notice if enemy moves a unit or doing something else. However , "something else" is not same as cheating. Something else = Operating or Buying Unit or Research or enemy scrolling map or reinfrocing... or the FOW cheat. I still could not know what he was doing. Before deceisive all out attacks most ppl DO use 2-4 minutes of planning so how do we know if they used if FOW sniffing? Using time in beginning of turn does not mean they cheat unless they do it every turn. Also, I do not monitor my opponent for 10 minutes. I minimize window and surf the net for minutes and then return to see the fast sequence of enemy moves. From my experience, I would not have noticed cheat then. I only wait 20-30 seconds after i sent turn and then i press <ESCAPE> [ May 23, 2004, 10:35 AM: Message edited by: zappsweden ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zappsweden Posted May 23, 2004 Share Posted May 23, 2004 Originally posted by Terif: Yes, this way to cheat in TCP is only a theoretical possibility, but simply not practical applicable in a real game: causes crashes (2 sessions)or at least lost connections, nobody has the time to do it during TCP and even if it would work it is simply noticable for the opponent. Originally posted by Terif: Rambo: Yes, it is possible that you dont notice it if someone cheats you. There are certainly ways to cheat out there you cant notice. The problem of possible cheating exists since the first computer game . Lastly its a matter of trust: If you trust your opponent or not. If not, then dont play him. Originally posted by Terif: Yes, there we are different : I dont think it is good to make things public that you cant improve this way, but in contrary if they are known to a lot of people increase the danger that someone cheats you - and harm the game . If someone doesnt know how to do a bad/forbidden thing (cheating) then even if he would be willing to do it, he cant do it . Adding up todays quotes strongly indicates that you write stuff that you already know is false. I called you a phoney before and I am glad I did not wrongly accuse. [ May 23, 2004, 04:32 PM: Message edited by: zappsweden ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jon_j_rambo Posted May 23, 2004 Author Share Posted May 23, 2004 Terif --- FOW sniffer works like a charm. It takes less than 1-minute to properly sniff out the opponent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terif Posted May 23, 2004 Share Posted May 23, 2004 Yes, if you play a normal game you will it most likely not notice. But if you are suspicious, you can take care of the signs and I am pretty sure you will find out if or if not - especially when you combine it with your experiences from other games (surprise contacts, attack/move sequence etc.). But lastly the theoretical possibility to cheat is not decisive. If someone cheats he has nothing to gain, but only to loose his reputation if he is cought. We play SC to have fun in our spare time, so why should someone cheat ? It only destroys the game for him. If you can only think during your games: "Oh my god, he could cheat me" :eek: - and have no fun any more - you really should think about stopping to play lol . Have fun in the game and not in hunting ghosts . Like I said earlier based on my personel experience: in the last years SC was as good as free from cheats and - more important - cheaters and I am very confident that it will remain free of them in the future. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jon_j_rambo Posted May 23, 2004 Author Share Posted May 23, 2004 Yoda said: If you can only think during your games: "Oh my god, he could cheat me" - and have no fun any more - you really should think about stopping to play lol . Have fun in the game and not in hunting ghosts So this easy cheat method is found, & now it's my fault for thinking? During my Legendary PBEM days, I got so much cheat garbage sent to me, because people are dying to beat me. I'm not chasing ghosts, I investigated this because of all the fishy moves people have pulled on me. Has nothing to with bugs...but wait, people know bugs, yet won't tell me...I find the bugs...and I'm the bad guy? Remember the AA-bug? Took me time to find it with (actually, Zapp found it after I expereinced it). THE AA-BUG is a HUGE factor in long games. People have being reloading in PBEM, FOW-sniffing my ships TCP/IP, FOW-sniffing my air-unit positions TCP/IP, & abusing bugs agaisnt me...Of course I'm going to "Hunt for ghosts". I prefer to call it,"Seek & you shall find". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jon_j_rambo Posted May 23, 2004 Author Share Posted May 23, 2004 Actually, it is rather sad it took me this long to figure this out. I'm sure my opponents have known about it all along. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zappsweden Posted May 23, 2004 Share Posted May 23, 2004 I think it is highly annoying when you find something new and some weakness (especially since patches and SC2 can learn from it and avoid the same mistakes) and ppl say "you should not have brought this out in the open". It happened on other topics too not just this one. Unless I work with industrial research, in a board of directors or other classified information I see no problem that we keep everything public here. That is MY view and no one can bash me for having it. If we had not brought out the flaws then we would have still been sitting here with the carrier flaw stategies on final patch 1.07. Contrary, if we had found them earlier, then we would have come across the camouflaged AA Bug too and gotten it fixed before the final patch was made. [ May 23, 2004, 11:08 AM: Message edited by: zappsweden ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jon_j_rambo Posted May 23, 2004 Author Share Posted May 23, 2004 Hey Zapp, buddy, you better not be FOW-Sniffing my pieces. I know you always wanted to beat me very badly, because deep down inside, your jealous of me, hehe... I'll tell you what, I'm going to get a laptop to play our next game of SC. Since our games take 20+ hours, I'll be able to play you while I fly a plane to Stockholm, Sweeden. By the time I physically land in Sweden, if will 1942 in SC game time. Then I'm going to look thru your window & watch you reload & sniff my pieces! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terif Posted May 23, 2004 Share Posted May 23, 2004 Originally posted by jon_j_rambo: ... I prefer to call it,"Seek & you shall find". Here you are right - but I guess you will only find it in your imagination . If it would be like you think it is, then a lot of people would have tried to cheat against me to beat me, but that is simply not the case. Its not your fault for thinking about and finding a method how to cheat (I still think it isnt practibel in a real game). All I say is that until now nearly nobody used/uses it. But when you make it public and give instructions how to do it, then you make it much more likely that someone will use it in the future. Same with the AA Bonus: Before it has been made public it was no issue and (as far as I know) nobody used it by purpose. Only after its publication it became popular for a few players to base their strategy on it. Fortunately it also has some disadvantages and countermessures are possible, but nevertheless like others too I dont like it if someone uses it to the extreme cause it can destroy a part of the game - and usually when the opponent has lost his AFs during the try to exploit the AA bonus he surrenders... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jon_j_rambo Posted May 23, 2004 Author Share Posted May 23, 2004 Terif --- Dude, my honor is clean in the world of SC. With all my American Cowboy BS, nobody has ever accused me of anything fishy. I've posted all losses without delay & I share information on game strategy no matter how found. Gee, I remember the Rambo Rome Invasion, in which I wouldn't count wins against anybody because I felt guilty doing it. But I will take credit for the ONLY player in the WORLD to have a WORLD WIDE RULE. I am the best player in the world based on time spent on the game Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zappsweden Posted May 23, 2004 Share Posted May 23, 2004 Originally posted by Terif: Same with the AA Bonus: Before it has been made public it was no issue and (as far as I know) nobody used it by purpose. Only after its publication it became popular for a few players to base their strategy on it. Fortunately it also has some disadvantages and countermessures are possible, but nevertheless like others too I dont like it if someone uses it to the extreme cause it can destroy a part of the game - and usually when the opponent has lost his AFs during the try to exploit the AA bonus he surrenders... Oh yeah?! You now say you do not LIKE that ppl use the AA bug? Who liked your "air+carriers plus interception flaws" strategy that u used with the old interception flaws? It was impossible breaking of that UK air superiority in the mid-game because of the big losses that ate luftwaffe units like cereals. If you play an optimized strategy yourself then you gotta be able to accept it from others too. The difference was, we revealed the AA ASAP but you kept your findings for yourself (I know because I did not find out what the interception flaw was until I asked you specifically about the sometimes odd losses) winning games with a real power strategy. Another thing. YA'LL MUST HAVE FORGOT, http://www.battlefront.com/cgi-bin/bbs/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=18;t=003125 The same Terif who said: "A lot of people complained about the "useless" anti-air tech. It seems it has another slight (unintended ?) advantage, so its a bit more valuable to research it. A nice feature, but not decissive." is now making his 180 degrees U-turn again complaining that ppl use the AA Bug. Also, Terif says that he plays for fun but still is so concerned that ppl could cheat (if we reveal cheating) and that ppl could exploit flaws (if we reveal them) that he says we should not post them in forum. That last thing about the Megalomaniac AA Bug players who lose their air fleets because they try to exploit the AA Bug sure take the price, lol. What a fairytale! Another thing is that "no one used this bug" thing because how could anyone know? I cannot see someone exploiting something I do not even know exist. Back in the old interception flaw days, you (Terif) won several games against me and many other players before I revealed that flaw in public so, likewise, someone could have done the same with the AA Bug. The difference is, this AA thing is practically only relevant in the 1942-1947 battles so it is more rarely that it can be used. Also, there is no real AA Bug tech strategy early in the game since the pay-off comes so late. Instead it is more of an extra luck tech factor after Barbarossa kick-off. Players put 1-3 chits on AA when the other important techs (should be read "Jets, Jets, Jets and perhaps long-range and Anti-Tank") are beginning to peak. [ May 23, 2004, 07:54 PM: Message edited by: zappsweden ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jon_j_rambo Posted May 23, 2004 Author Share Posted May 23, 2004 Terif --- Dude, why don't you just admit that your a HIGHLY competitive person? It's not a sin to be competitive, don't be embarassed. When the SC-League smack started, you were motivated by it! You played 40+ hours a week to become the champion, that's life. What bugs me (is it another bug?)...what bugs me is when you say something like this,"Rambo, just play for fun, yet you're not like me with wins". You can't play both sides of the coin, unless COMPETITION = FUN. You always try to get on my case about my Hero Style play, that's who I am. The only person that can beat me is you. I walk over the rest of the people. My record when I vacation speaks for itself. I smoked you when I had the time & no interuptions. Sniff that Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jon_j_rambo Posted May 23, 2004 Author Share Posted May 23, 2004 I also believe Terif knew about the FOW-SNIFFER a long time ago. That fact I found it randomly probably brushes his ego. Terif probably thinks his knowledge should not be given to the peasants of the World. Remember SC-sport's fans, Rambo reveals things that I find & will explain when asked. I do not hide the Truth. Jesus Christ is the Truth, the Life, & the Way. No man come to the Father except by the Son. Rambo found FOW-SNIFFER (not first probably), Rambo reveals FOW-SNIFFER (1st) Rambo loves SC Rambo loves Competition Rambo loves the "common player" Rambo loves the American Cowboy Hero Style Rambo loves golf (playing today) Rambo loves Jesus (because He first loved me) Rambo >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'M A LEGEND, OUT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terif Posted May 23, 2004 Share Posted May 23, 2004 Zapp: - learn to read (or is it because you like to turn around the words in someone elses mouth ?) - stop lying/talking crap - learn a better behaviour Then we can talk again - until then I simply cant take you serious any more. Your only interest in the meantime seems to be to find ways to damage my reputation and to kill SC as a multiplayer game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jon_j_rambo Posted May 23, 2004 Author Share Posted May 23, 2004 Okay guys, last post for me for awhile, gotta go. I've enjoyed the discussion, because it is about gaming competition. Zapp, Terif, & myself are the original "Big-3" of SC. I'm off to do a little singing, praising, eating, & golf. "Rejoice & be glad, for this is the day the Lord hath made, & there will be none other like it". Come to Boise, Idaho...soon I move to the State of Washington, I'll will drink a few brews, eat, & discuss wargames. Rambo welcomes visitors Rambo welcomes smack Rambo welcomes competition (just don't sniff me) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts