German Plan Z scenerio

[Panzer39]

I would like this thread to discuss the German naval build up program prior to war and figure out the best way to mod it into SC. I am thinking of starting the scenerio in 1943 so in essence only half of the naval build up will have taken place. All imput is welcome.

Jersey John

Here is a picture of what the o-class would have looked liked

It would have been 40000 tons, carried 6 15 inch guns and had a top speed of 29 knots with a range of 12000 miles.

Here is a line drawing of the P-class

[JerseyJohn]

Panzer39

Great illustrations. The 'P' Class looks like it would have been the workhorse in terms of sinking merchant ships. If it were a light cruiser what would it have carried, 6" main guns?

I'd say an 'O' class BC with a few of these smaller ships would have made minced meat of most convoys; except for protection against aircraft. Using French ports and assuming the completed carriers could have been brought north past Norway, around England and down the Denmark straights to operate out of the Bay of Biscay, along with these other ships, wolfpacks and the Luftwaffe, the Battle of the Atlantic might very easily have gone against Britain.

Regarding a Z-Plan scenario. I'd recommend figuring two capital ships per unit. If all the projected ships were included Germany would have 4 BB units (the six Hindenburg class and 2 Bismark class) and 1 AC (Graf Zeppelin and Peter Strasser).

When Hitler first called all his service chiefs together I believe he said the goal was to triple the size of each branch.

Then, within a year he forced a war that would cancel all the plans any of them had made! The answer, of course is he didn't believe England and France were serious about backing Poland.

Presumably a realized Z-Plan would hinge on the idea that all the actual events were postponed long enough for the expansion to be realized.

I toyed with a similar scenario idea when I first got the game. The first attempts were too one sided. Striking a balance is pretty difficult as Germany already had functional jets in 1939. It was only the combined genius of Ernst Udet and Hermann Goering that caused the already advanced project to be completely scrapped! Which is one of the problems, if you anticipate the German War Machine being not only larger but more advanced, how does anyone manage to fight them?

How much compensation do you give Britain and France and how do you adjust Russia, Italy and the U. S. so they'll also be in the game?

Good Luck with the project.

[ February 25, 2003, 12:23 AM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ]

[Night]

I think russia would be the biggest problem with the game's limitations. But i would love to see a 1943 scn. like you are talking about. I also agree it would be one sided though, germany was poping out new technology at break-neck pace pretty much, imagine what they would have had with those extra 3 years of peace?

[Minotaur]

Originally posted by JerseyJohn:

... Striking a balance is pretty difficult ... Which is one of the problems, if you anticipate the German War Machine being not only larger but more advanced, how does anyone manage to fight them?

How much compensation do you give Britain and France and how to you adjust Russia, Italy and the U. S. so they'll also be in the game?

Good Luck with the project.

Here's a idea to help balance... I don't know if it's a good one though...

You could assume that Pearl Harbor did occurs in 1941 and US/UK were at war with Japan... Germany stay quiet... Since both countries didn't have to think about Germany, they put all their war machines against Japan... We could assume that Japan would be defeated more quickly because of that...

So lets assume Japan is defeated before 1943... Germany is ready to attack, but US saw it coming and had time enough to transfer all it's ships from the Pacific to the Atlantic... This should give some challenge to the newly created German fleet...

And since US/UK successfully fight Japan, they would have gain more experience in battle (land, air & sea) than the 'peaceful' Germany...

[ February 25, 2003, 12:40 AM: Message edited by: Minotaur ]

[JerseyJohn]

Minotaur

Good idea but I don't think it works on an historical basis. Japan wouldn't have made it's moves against either the U. S. or the colonial powers without the war in Europe being at it's worst. Japan vs the U. S., Britain and an undefeated France wouldn't be a contest. Not even the Japanese were that oblivious to the odds. In all liklihood the USSR would have joined the party on it's own to grab Manchuria and Korea!

I think a more historically accurate method would be to add a French HQ (Gamelin), an army and a Tank group; a British HQ (Auchinleck) and a Tank Group in Britain, along with the BEF and a corps in each of the the three British coastal cities.

German research levels would be increased dramatically and British research moderately.

I'd give Britain L=2 gun laying radar and Germany L=1 and make all ships full stregnth. That way Britain would maintain her naval advantage (12pt BR v 11pt Ger with French & Italian 10pts) without having to add a lot of naval units; the older ships would have been replaced by newer ones and her aircraft carriers would be 11s against Germany's 10.

Instead of drastic research advances (L=3 and above) I'd give Germany extra research credits; that way it's research would progress quickly, representing the fruition of pre-war advances without having her starting units become invincible.

The expanded German army might be represented by converting the corps to armies and adding the von Leeb (one of the weakest) HQs in the west. I wouldn't triple the Luftwaffe, but would increase it by one luftflotte and a strategic bomber, which would make it much more formidable.

[ February 25, 2003, 02:01 AM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ]

[Panzer39]

Jersey John

The P class would have carried 11" inch guns like the Pockets so it still would have been a match for any British crusier.

For the scenerio I was thinking the balancing factor against Germany having higher Tech is a more prepared Soviet Union. Many historians believe that Stalin was planning a trip towards European conquest himself and that Hitler only beat him to it. In the scenerio, if the Germans do not take France super quick they will be forced into a two front war months after the game begins.

The limitations of the SC editor is all that really holds this back. For example, it is impossible? to edit the Russian unit experience levels without activating them first, and once activated they are at War with Germany. All that can be done is up their war rediness so that 1/2 the time they Declare war while the German player is still busy or recovering from France. Maybe forcing the German player to try a "Russia First" approach.

I like some of the ideas posted so far so please keep them coming. Does anyone think that Japan could have gone after the UK by themselves?

I am about 3/4 of the way finished with a idea like this for Hearts Of Iron amd it has gone pretty smooth. I really hope that SC2 offers a more control with editor.

[JerseyJohn]

Panzer39

I don't think Japan would have made a move in the Pacific without a war in Europe. There best bet might have been an attempt at taking the Soviet resources (oil, etc.) near their existing territories. Unfortunately their maverick field commanders attempted it on their own, got slaughtered twice in an "unofficial" war, and the idea was scrapped. If they could have attained a quick knock out of the Soviet far eastern armies the rest would have been similar to the 1905 Russo-Japanese War, with Russia having to move everything slowly and piecemeal across the single track Trans-Siberian Railroad.

Failing that, their next good target would have been the Dutch East Indies (Indonesia). With a little moxy they might have made an unprovoked surprise move, taken them as they did with German trained paratroopers seizing the oil fields, and with their own huge supply of oil and rubber American embargos would have been meaningless. British and French intervention would have taken a long time to arrive and the United States would never have gone to war over it. But again, I dount the Japanese would have made such a move.

I've experimented with a few scenarios where Germany has to fight a two front war from the start and it's extremely difficult to balance things so Germany isn't just losing units because it can't replace casualties.

[ February 25, 2003, 10:41 AM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ]

[ThorKhan]

JerseyJohn

Japan could have taken Indonesia anyway without attacking the USA simultanously. But they didn't because in that case the USA might have gone to war with an intact Pacificfleet. And the Japanese knew that they wouldn't stand a chance then. So they decided to sink the US Pacificfleet first, because they thought this would buy them enough time to conquer all the resources they needed...

Panzer39

I don't think that a completed Z-plan would have made Germany really stronger, because it simply didn't have the resources to be land and naval power. With that fleet built there wouldn't have been enough steel for all the Panzers that were needed for a successfull Blitzkrieg.

Plus building a huge fleet of battleships and cruisers would have been an investment in the wrong branch of naval warfare as the battleship lost its position as ruler of the seas to the aircraft-carrier.

Concerning merchant raiding u-boats were more cost efficient than surface ships...

But still it's only a scenario, so why not

[JerseyJohn]

ThorKhan

Exactly the point! As I said, allowing them to ignore U. S. economic sanctions -- which assumes no U. S. declaration of war followed, only additional American embargoes.

The Japanese never understood how isolationist the American people were at that time. Even if FDR had, through some miracle, gotten Congress to declare war, it would have become a failed effort.

It would have been the most unpopular war in United States history. They'd have dubbed it Roosevelt's War and the first Guadalcanal would have swept FDR into political oblivion. Roosevelt knew this, it was only the Japanes that failed to comprehend the fact.

Before negotiation peace Japan probably would have successfully invaded the Phillipines and been left with everything it wanted.

More likely the U. S. would not have declared war on Japan. No doubt it would have stepped up it's war readiness and imposed embargos, but with Indonesia feeding it's industry these would have had little meaning and the American public would have sorely missed Indonesian rubber.

Britain and France might have gone to Holland's aid. But here too, the outlook is bright for Japan. Before help could have arrived the Japanese might well have won French Inochina (Laos, Cambodia and Vietnam) along with Malaysia.

This without a war in Germany being fought.

No doubt Germany would have made a deal with Soviet Russia, grabbed half of Poland while the Brits and French were preoccupied, and solidified their influence over the Balkan nations. It would have been interesting to see if Britain and France would have, under those circumstances, honored their committment to Poland. Probably they would have, leaving Japan to run wild on their Pacific holdings. France would no doubt have fallen as it did historically. Either that or Germany would have grabbed Denmark and Norway, possibly leading to a negotiated peace with the already demoralized British and French.

All speculation, of course.

[ February 25, 2003, 01:48 PM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ]

[Shaka of Carthage]

I'm curious. Read somewhere among this thread, that the recommendation is for there to be two (2) capital ships per SC naval unit.

If so, what is the numbers for the subs?

I wonder if part of the problem with the UK not being hampered by German U-boats (among others), is that the beginning two (2) sub units the Germans get is not enough. Maybe getting four (4) or six (6) subs at the beginning would be better.

[JerseyJohn]

Shaka

The double ship units was my remark. Good point about the Atlantic U-boats. I hadn't given it much thought but figured they represented about six each. However, now that you brought it up, Germany must have had more than 12 in the Atlantic in '39. Not very much more, but assuming they had 18 or even 25, at six each it would make 3 or 4 units, and a considerable difference!

[JerseyJohn]

Panzer39

I'd originally posted this material in the Barbarossa Preparation Forum , but it also belongs here as, even with Goering calling the shots, Jet Technology would have been a key element in Germany's Z-Plan. -- Without the pressure of actually being at war, the Luftwaffe would have continued it's research in this area.

Detailed Article about the Horten Bros, their research and the ONE WING aircraft, with illustrations.

Brief Bio of Jack Northrup and account of Politics blocking the Flying Wing.

The very similar American version also had a very long range and stealthy ability. These planes aren't far removed from the present stalth bombers. The main difference is in the materials used for their construction, most of which were unavailable in the forties.

The Following Flying Wing Pictures have been lifted from the Prop and Jet Forum I've brought back. along with the Horten One Wing model

Properller Version of the American Northrup Flying WingOriginally posted by Compassion.

Jet version of the Northrup Flying Wing taken Fifty Years Ago! Direct ancestor to the Stealth Bombers (also See above Biog Article Link)Originally posted by Compassion.

Present Day Stealth Bomber Originally posted by Compassion.

Model of the Horten One Wing Bomber (also See above Article link)

Artist's conception of trans-Atlantic Arado E555 Bomber in planning stage 1945. Originally posted by JayJay_H

[ February 26, 2003, 02:30 PM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ]

[JerseyJohn]

As Regards the Z-Plan in aircraft terms, the following article covers the development of the ME-262 Fighter Plane. Despite making it's appearance late in the war, it was actually being developed in the Spring of 1939!

Also posted below are several articles with illustrations of early German, British and American Jet Aircraft. In 1939 Germany was also conducting experiments on Rocket Powered Fighter Planes.

Link to Article on ME-262 discussing it's design origen of April 1939 -- a mock up was displayed in early July 1939.

"The He178V1 was the first jet of the Third Reich. It was designed by Ernst Heinkel in 1938 and flew on 27 August 1939 as a test concept proof of jet aviation. The fuselage was metal, the wings were wood and it had retractable landing gear, but these were locked down for the V1. It flew about 12 flights in all before being retired to Berlin Air Museum where it was destroyed by American bombers in a 1943 bombing raid. " Quoted from URL article linked below.

Modeler's article on the Heinkel 178.

Allied Jets of WW II origin.

Link to article+images Discussing Early Jet Aircraft from British Perspective.

Article with photos of Briton's first Jet Fighter, the Golster Meteor with reference to German Jets.

Lockheed P-80 Shooting Star, development begun 1943, servicable late 1945

[ February 26, 2003, 04:40 PM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ]

[Panzer39]

Thanks for the links Jeresy John, some interesting reading. If you havent checked out http://www.luft46.com it is a really great site with a lot of info on Germany's jet projects

Looks familiar

[JerseyJohn]

And thank you for the great link Panzer , one of the best I've seen.

Terrific pic -- If I were a billionaire I'd love to buy one along with Liam's Zeke!

There's also a link somewhere, I'll look for it and post it here, where a restored Lockheed Flying wing has been put back in the air in California (where else!) exhibitions.

Found it and this is it.

Restored Flying Wing -- article with photos.

It's been rebuilt in it's oribinal prop version and painted a bright lemon yellow.

[ February 27, 2003, 01:11 PM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ]

[JerseyJohn]

-- *

Also copied to the New Scenario Forum.

JJ Z-Plan Scenario

Panzer39’s idea of a scenario on this subject has caught my interest. I’m sure we’d come up with greatly different approaches on the same subject, so I’ll list mine here. It’s already in the box and anyone interested in receiving a Winzipped copy is invited to contact me at JohnofJersey@AOL.com.

Historical Background

In the late summer of 1939 Hitler heeds the advice of his generals and decides to postpone the Polish invasion. After a face saving conference arranged once more by Mussolini, the leaders of the major powers return to their capitals and issue statements of

Peace while ordering increased preparation for war.

based upon Hitler's 1938 instructions to his generals and admirals to let the armaments ministers know what they'd need to triple their effectiveness by 1942. Then he started in with Czechoslovakia and Poland instead of letting them build up as they'd been told to do. The scenario assumes he absorbed the first country but stopped short of Poland, putting it off till he was more well prepared.

In addition to increasing Germany I’ve also increased England and France. I've added HQs and an aircraft carrier to both France and Italy. The Italians start the war along with Germany (in 1938 Hitler had also assured Italy that he'd do nothing to cause a major war before late 1941; in this scenario the war commences a year after that, 1942, so presumably an adequately prepared Italy would have jumped in from the start. Also, I assume with this heightened preparation her neighbor Greece would have felt threatened and joined the Allies from the start.

The British fleet is given L2 gunnery radar, Germany has L1 while Italy and France have L0; this should assure a position of dominance for the British Navy. Their BB fleet has been slightly increased in response to Germany's naval buildup. They've got 10 BB units instead of the 7 Hubert gives them. All units are historically named. The older BBs having presumably gone to the Scrap heap (Queen Elizabeth, Malaya Rodney, Nelson, etc.) are all renamed to historically later vessels, Howe, King George V, Lion, etc. .... I've also added 2 British subs, one in the North Sea and one in the Mediterranean. A few British land units have also been added, principally Montgomery and the BEF in UK and Wavell and 8th Army in Egypt. Another airfleet has been added to the UK.

Germany starts with L2 jet, Britain has L1, Italy and France have L0. Germany also has an added army (6th) along the Belgian border, two added HQs, both 6's which is their lowest performance (one in East Prussia, the other near the Rhine) as well as an added Luftflotte, Panzer Group (in East Prussia), a heavy bomber (L0) near Poland and a Rocket Detachment (L2) also near Poland.

The German Navy has 2 carrier units. One represents the pair of carriers they'd launched in 1936, Graf Zeppelin and Peter Strasser, each holding 42 aircraft and historically neither was ever completed. The other is a fictitious large aircraft carrier, around 90 aircraft capacity, I've dubbed the Manfred von Richtoffen after their top WW I fighter ace. The Atlantic U-boats have been eliminated and only the Baltic wolf pack remains. Additionally, Germany has the BBs Bismarck and Tirpitz (historically built by then) and the H-class BBs Hindenburg, a larger Bismarck with 16" guns that was cancelled when the war began in 1939 and Ludendorff. For those who like U-boats I've got a second version where Germany doesn't have the second carrier unit but adds three U-boats in the Atlantic. In both scenarios Germany retains the Shcarnhorst and Geneisenau as cruiser units. In reality they'd have been fitted with 15" guns to replace their 11" pea shooters to become true Battlecruisers, but we have no way of showing this in the game.

--

These additions, large as they are, fall far short of what Hitler was planning. This reflects my opinion that he over stated what he wanted and, in reality, would have wound up with something like what is shown here.

Minor Allies have been added to each side in accordance with the MPP adjustment Threads in the SC Forum.

Germany gets Sweden. Her two armies and airfleet have been renamed Kondor to insinuate some sort of Nazi International Force, presumably recruited from Scandinavian nazi volunteers. These units are intended to be used with the HQ starting near Konigsberg, which would be transported north after the fall of Poland to supply the Kondors while they invade Norway (presumably with carrier air support and Luftflotte support from Denmark). The Kondor units should then be kept in Norway, one army at Oslo and the other at Bergen with the Swedish air fleet (Kondor Luftflotte) based near Bergen to provide some protection against strategic bombing.

The UK gets Greece, Ireland, Portugal and Iraq. Of these, the two Greek mountain armies are facing an Italian invasion at the outset. Italy has an HQ, an army and a corps in Albania with a bomber near Bari and an aircraft carrier in the Adriatic.

[ March 28, 2003, 02:19 PM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ]

[Panzer39]

Seems like an interesting setup, I will try to play it this weekend.

[JerseyJohn]

Minor OB Change

After thinking it over, I realized the U-boat version gives Germany more in MPP value than the double aircraft carrier version. That was because in the CV version Germany has two aircraft carriers while in the other she has only one but is compensated for this with 3 Atlantic U-boats and an additional BB in the Baltic.

To correct this, I've added the BB Ludendorff to Germany's Baltic Fleet in both scenarios and in the U-boat version it's a matter of deleting the CV Richtoffen and adding three U-boats to the Atlantic.

The net result is a choice between 3 Uboats for 1 CV; before it was 3 Uboats + 1 BB for 1 CV.

A minor change but one I think makes a big difference.

[JerseyJohn]

[copied from the New Campaign Thread Part Two]

Once again I'd like to thank Otto for making a second scenario available for download at his great Web Site.

Anyone interested in playing the 1942 (JJ) German Z-Plan campaign can download it at Otto's.

link to OTTO's Strategic Command HeadQuarters Site

I hope anyone who does enjoys playing it. As I state elsewhere, though the game begins in 1942 historical time, in game time it uses the standard SC starting date of Sept 3, 1939 = 9/3/42, that way there are still over seven years of play with the US & USSR having their war entry % react in the same way as a normal game.

I'm pleased to say Panzer_39 is working on his concept of the Z-Plan and, when he's satisfied with it, we'll have a second and different campaign on this very interesting subject.

[ May 11, 2003, 05:38 AM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ]

[cruzzer]

Hi JerseyJohn

Very intertesting writing. Good, accurate view of events and thoughts before the war really happened, as many people dont know most of the things that went on behind the scenes in 37, 38 and 39. One thing though, you say give Portugal to UK as a minor ally, but you forget that since 1933 Portugal was a facist country with Salazar as dctator and strong ties to Hitler and Germany, just like Franco and Spain. While Franco assured Hitler he would join the war sometime (always "soon, but not now"), Hitler understood that Portugal would always remain neutral (although she sold wolfram and other raw materials and bread and such to Hitler, she allowed the allies to use the Azores for an air base against u-boats). However, she would never join "england's" war as Salazar did not care much for the "oldest alliance in euorpe". Im Portuguese (and American) and have read and heard from my father and mother and uncles and family about the situation here in 39-45.

Its not a big deal, but just thought that if your going for realism, gotta go all the way. (Pisses me off that a HUGE port like Lisbon is represented in SC).

[JerseyJohn]

cruzzer

Thanks for the info -- as you can probably guess, to me items like this really are a big deal and I enjoy getting good input.

Neither Portugal nor Ireland would have allied with the UK. The only reason I put them there was for MPP reasons. Economically, Portugal and Spain were links between Axis dominated Europe and the rest of the world. As you mention, there was trade carried on through the hostilities and Spain, Portugal, Sweden and Switzerland were the ones that conducted most of it.

Anyhow, in other scenarios I gave Germany Switzerland in order to give the UK Iraq, but the MPP balance was a bit in Germany's favor, so I decided to give the UK Portugal and Ireland. The main idea was because they'd be inconvenient for Germany to invade (especially Ireland) and would provide Britain with a few extra MPPs.

We had a lot of discussions on this topic, the idea being to allow neutral countries to have an economic influence on the beligerants. Here are links to some of them. In my opinion these are some of the most interesting topics that have been discussed on this forum.

*Topic of Suggestions for Diplomacy and Economic Ideas.

*Neutrals as Economic Factors in SC.

Glad you find the topic interesting and I hope you start a thread on WW II Portugal under Salazar. It hasn't been done yet and I sure a lot of us would really like knowing more about the subject, I would for certain.

Also, there have been tons of discussions here on turning Lisbon and a few other locations into ports.

In Lisbon's case is seems especially ironic as so much of the world was explored from ships leaving that city and also Oporto in Northern Portugal. The West-East Trade Winds run right across both cities. Christopher Columbus, while working for Spain, was practically blown into Oporto on one of his return voyages. Which had him worried as the Portuguese felt he'd betrayed much of their exclusive geography knowledge to the Spaniards!

[ April 22, 2003, 07:35 PM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ]

[JerseyJohn]

After some play testing with Panzer_39 on his scenario in progress and with Rannug of my own Z-Plan scenario (downloadable at Otto's [link at bottom of page] if you'd like to have a copy), it was found that, understandably, the Germans, even toned down from Hitler's plans, can be a little too powerful.

Rannug countered this as the Allies by using the Dutch Gambit, which effectively delays German conquest in the West. Unfortunately, despite the pillage factor, there are drawbacks to this solution, not the least of which is delayed U. S. and Soviet war entry. Also, for those more concerned with history than gameplay, it would seem highly unlikely that Britain and France would have invaded Belgium in 1939 after having made so much of the German invasion of that country at Versailles.

A possible compromise Panzer and myself are working on is to add the Low Countries to the Allies. Relocate the Dutch Corps to behind the Rhine River bend and move the nearest French Army into the Belgian Ardennes Hes; also, move the French First Army from it's starting location North of Paris to a new starting point on the coast near Bordeaux.

These measures should allow for a more well balanced game without allowing the Western Allies to unrealistically invade Germany through the Low Countries on the first turn. Historically Belgium had a mutual defence alliance with France till 1936, so this change only means upon seeing Germany's massive military buildup they decided to reactivate it instead of seeking neutrality.

As the acctivation of any country on either side is irreversible, I'd recommend making this an updated file, say JJ Z-Plan V1.01 if you enjoy the scenario as it presently is. A word of caution on the Allied Low Countries Variant, it could take Germany a long time and increased losses to crack the extended Rhine and Ardennes Defensive Line, which is why some players might prefer the original version.

link to OTTO's Strategic Command HeadQuarters Site

[ May 11, 2003, 05:40 AM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ]

[Edwin P.]

Great Scenario's

One possible historical variant is that the US would have transferred some of their pacific forces to the Atlantic if Germany had fielded a much enlarged navy.

To reflect this I would probably increase the US Atlantic fleet by 1 Carrier, and 2 cruisers.

[Panzer39]

I would liked to have added more ships to both the USA and USSR as well as modifing the USSR's order of battle. However, like John stated, once a country is activated it cannot be deactivated in the scenario editor.

In my scenario, Germany's enlarged army and navy is countered by an early Soviet declaration of war thus making a early Sea Lion very risky. So far this usually happens before the fall of France which forces Germany into a two front war. The first time I played John, he had a bad go as Russia due to a late Siberian transfer and could not break through my defensive line in France. The second time, I went for a France first strategy which with Germany's more powerful airforce and army ensured his defeat early. Hopefully the latest modifications that I made to the scenario will balance the game out a bit more.

For those who would be interested, my Plan-Z scenario is based off of John's except it starts in 1942 game time. I choose to go this route because I hold to the notion that Stalin was preparing for an offensive war and if Hitler had waited to 1942, Stalin would have taken the offensive. At first I felt that the Germans would be at a disadvantage, most likely having not taking out France before USSR prepares for war. However, so far this does not seem the case, unless I am a far better player (or John a far worse ) player than I think. Hopefully the latest modifications will prove successful and I will make my scenario available for download as well.

[JerseyJohn]

(or John a far worse) A theory John himself subscribes to!

The two of us had parrellel ideas on this subject and I think the two scenarios will work as a companion set presenting different aspects of the same basic premise. My idea is more in line with the 1939 scenario (1942 situation set in 1939 calendar and political situation) while Panzer's is set in a more advanced political stage with a shorter but more intense confilct.

I like both approaches.

Edwin, Glad you like the Z-Plan projects, Panzer and myself hit the same idea at the same time and have been exchanging ideas with one another. It's a fortunate example of combined efforts producing a synergy.

Enlarging the U. S. Atlantic fleet in that manner would make sense. I think both Panzer and myself would have done more to add surface raiders between Africa and South America if it were more feasable within the game parameters. As it is we both originally had cruisers or battleships out there in form or another but as the game is presently set up they have no supplies and are too easy to sink; also, they don't do any commerce raiding! Still, there are possibilities . . ..

[ May 11, 2003, 07:38 PM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ]