Blocking Invasions

[Edi]

When playing the Axis against the AI I find that lining France with corps will stop the invasion there because if there is a unit in the beach landing zone there will be no attack. I find this rather gamey and wish that there could be direct naval assault as there was at Normandy, Anzio etc.

It is too easy to keep the Americans/Brits off the mainland by the technique of beach squatting with a few air units to pick off the allies and keep their air forces occupied.

Do you agree with me

[Aloid]

Originally posted by Edi:

When playing the Axis against the AI I find that lining France with corps will stop the invasion there <snip>...(ouch)

You're doing all this and attacking Russia?

Are you on 1.03, and playing beyond +0?

I've not been in that situation single player since the beta demo... been PBEM since...

So how are things in the East going?

Aloid

[arby]

Originally posted by Aloid:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Edi:

When playing the Axis against the AI I find that lining France with corps will stop the invasion there <snip>...(ouch)

You're doing all this and attacking Russia?

Are you on 1.03, and playing beyond +0?

Aloid</font>

[Good Soldier Svejk]

Interesting problem,

I think that it is being examined from only one side, however. Both tactics mentioned would work against either a hasty or a moderate invasion attempt.

I believe that someone else has mentioned how often the allieds conduct a landing in Europe (like in '42) shortly after the U.S. enters the war, which in reality they were nowhere near being able to conduct for years. What this string says is that the game may be better, historically, than it was given credit for because there are some fairly simple ways to thwart a "quickie" invasion.

In short, if the allies really build up an invasion force, to include supporting naval and air units, they would pound the corps until holes began to appear. In the case of Arby's defense, excellent at keeping early "quickie" invasions away, knocking one corps out of the line would produce the necessary gap--or conducting two landings, one behind the other in two different places would also suffice since the blocking corps had been committed elsewhere. A broad front invasion would also work: more hexes to cover than units available (although risky once ashore with a small force).

In the case of lining the coast with corps "Westwall" is what the Germans called it, you would suffer attrition and have to be constantly replacing these units unless you put them there really early and they got good and entrenched before the allieds came back--however, given Russia, I don't see how you could invest like this in the West while at the same time getting ready fro the East. And if you put them there late, they won't be sufficiently entrenched to survive a good pounding. A concentrated air attack combined with a naval bombardment from one hex could clear a hex in a single turn, leaving a gap for a landing, forcing the line to collapse or shorten to respond, leaving other gaps. If you've got so much in the West that you've also got a reserve behind a continuous wall of units on

the coast, then an invasion of Europe is a moot point; the Axis, in this case, needs to be the one conducting the invasions (the point is moot).

In either case, a major effort, preceded by an air campaign (aircraft are expensive to replace) would eventually cause enough attrition that a gap would appear and a landing could take place.

I'm not saying it would be easy or that these aren't good ideas for defending Europe, but suggesting that the conventional definition of what constitutes a viable invasion effort of "Fortress Europa," should the Axis be using such a strategy, has to change from the "ship a few transports over and drop them on an empty hex in France" to something more like the D Day preparation and buildup: kinda more like history, eh?

Fog of war would make it harder for both sides, but, again, if we're talking about a preparation on a scale of D Day, then the Allieds should have sufficient strategic bombers posted to see into France.

For the Western allieds to have a chance, however, against either of these measures, the war in the East has to be ongoing, otherwise the German will be able to replace losses in the counter-landing forces and attrition won't work.

Interesting stuff!

Salute!

[Good Soldier Svejk]

Interesting problem,

I think that it is being examined from only one side, however. Both tactics mentioned would work against either a hasty or a moderate invasion attempt.

I believe that someone else has mentioned how often the allieds conduct a landing in Europe (like in '42) shortly after the U.S. enters the war, which in reality they were nowhere near being able to conduct for years. What this string says is that the game may be better, historically, than it was given credit for because there are some fairly simple ways to thwart a "quickie" invasion.

In short, if the allies really build up an invasion force, to include supporting naval and air units, they would pound the corps until holes began to appear. In the case of Arby's defense, excellent at keeping early "quickie" invasions away, knocking one corps out of the line would produce the necessary gap--or conducting two landings, one behind the other in two different places would also suffice since the blocking corps had been committed elsewhere. A broad front invasion would also work: more hexes to cover than units available (although risky once ashore with a small force).

In the case of lining the coast with corps "Westwall" is what the Germans called it, you would suffer attrition and have to be constantly replacing these units unless you put them there really early and they got good and entrenched before the allieds came back--however, given Russia, I don't see how you could invest like this in the West while at the same time getting ready fro the East. And if you put them there late, they won't be sufficiently entrenched to survive a good pounding. A concentrated air attack combined with a naval bombardment from one hex could clear a hex in a single turn, leaving a gap for a landing, forcing the line to collapse or shorten to respond, leaving other gaps. If you've got so much in the West that you've also got a reserve behind a continuous wall of units on

the coast, then an invasion of Europe is a moot point; the Axis, in this case, needs to be the one conducting the invasions (the point is moot).

In either case, a major effort, preceded by an air campaign (aircraft are expensive to replace) would eventually cause enough attrition that a gap would appear and a landing could take place.

I'm not saying it would be easy or that these aren't good ideas for defending Europe, but suggesting that the conventional definition of what constitutes a viable invasion effort of "Fortress Europa," should the Axis be using such a strategy, has to change from the "ship a few transports over and drop them on an empty hex in France" to something more like the D Day preparation and buildup: kinda more like history, eh?

Fog of war would make it harder for both sides, but, again, if we're talking about a preparation on a scale of D Day, then the Allieds should have sufficient strategic bombers posted to see into France.

For the Western allieds to have a chance, however, against either of these measures, the war in the East has to be ongoing, otherwise the German will be able to replace losses in the counter-landing forces and attrition won't work.

Interesting stuff!

Salute!

[Good Soldier Svejk]

Double Post Don't know how that happened :eek: Ratz!

[Norse]

Airsuperiority. Have it, use it, win the day

[Hubert Cater]

If you haven't tried v1.03 there were some improvemets made to the combat system as well as amphibious assaults, better coordination and the Allies build up a bit more of an invasion force prior to attack.

Hubert

[John DiFool]

Originally posted by arby:

Actually, you don't have to line France with corps, which I agree would be too expensive given the needs on the Western Front. The problem for the Allies is that they can't attack along the entire coast, either. In my last PBEM game, I thwarted an invasion simply by posting a corps every three squares. With the 4 movement, I could concentrate them on any landing area that the Allied player chose.

It probably wouldn't be a bad idea to allow amphibious attack on a hex.

My solution is to land in...Spain! This of

course assumes that the Germans have left Franco

alone (as well as Vichy). If I land two Tank

units just north of the Pyrenees, I can cut off

any reinforcements, and Spain will fall in two

turns (after I take out Portugal first).

Of course countering one ahistorical strategy

with another isn't exactly the kind of solution

you might want to see... :eek:

John DiFool

[Edi]

Actually I have been playing with 1.03 and do not see where the amphibious assaults are...you still cannot land where there is an occupied space and this leaves the Germans with a very gamey solution to the western front: transfer all the minor corps to the west and simply move them to where ever the allies want to land and they are stopped again and again. 2 or 3 air units will pick off the allied landing craft since they seem to like to go to the south of biscay and you can stop them.

You need to be able to attack from the sea directly to an occupied land space and have a chance to force the defender back. The system needs a retreat roll concept.

Originally posted by Hubert Cater:

If you haven't tried v1.03 there were some improvemets made to the combat system as well as amphibious assaults, better coordination and the Allies build up a bit more of an invasion force prior to attack.

Hubert

[Russ Bensing]

Originally posted by John DiFool:

I think it's a good one. The only problem I see is that there aren't any ports along the Atlantic in Spain and Portugal. That poses supply problems and also means you've got to amphibious land reinforcements. Plus you don't get the air cover from England.

I like what the man said before: airpower, baby.

The Brits research and build planes after the fall of France, and if the German player leaves France largely undefended, by mid-1942 you should be able to mount an invasion. If he does the corps thing, you have enough planes to punch a hole in that line and get ashore. Like they used to say on SCTV, "he blowed up real good."

[Desert Dave]

Interesting problem, and good points all around.

There are roughly 20 hexes stretching from just below Marsailles to the Low Countries, so at a cost of -- what? 100 MPP each (... assuming at least Industrial Tech 2), that would be an investment of -- 2000 MPPs! just to forestall an invasion of... ONLY France!

Leaving Norway (... maybe Sweden), Spain/Portugal, Balkans, North Afrika, and Italy -- which likely are quite lightly defended. (I don't know what the AI would do if confronted with this problem because I have never tried it).

This is probably a moot point anyway, since the Axis really cannot afford to defend every possible landing hex and ALSO defeat Russia, can they?

If Russia is on the ropes or already defeated, then it seems to me there is no reason to do this -- it is time for more powerful offensive forces for a late Sea Lion.

So let's assume that Axis can do almost miraculous Speer-assisted production. Most games, I have seen the Allied AI with 7-8 (or more) Air Fleets in southern England by summer of '43, AND they have extensive experience due to constantly bombarding cities and corps, AND they have equally experienced supporting HQs AND very often -- level 12 or 13 planes.

This alone might suggest that they could take out at least 2 or 3 beach-defenders on any one turn -- and if Russia is still putting up the good fight, can the Axis really afford the defensive Air Fleets necessary to help prevent this?

And having spent that 2000 MPP for Fortress Corps Europa, how could they have also built a strong enough Kreigsmarine to sink any of the oncoming waves of transports?

PBEM may well introduce new variations on this strategy, and I would be very interested to hear any AARs on this.

[mateos66]

There were two strategies discussed by the Germans on how to defeat an invasion of France - the "wall" vs mobility. The wall idea was Hilters (and pretty stupid) while the idea of mobility was von Rundstedt. Rundstedt wanted to hold everything back away from the navy and air power, and then throw it at the allies after they landed.

The game mimics this pretty well. If you hold close to the coast, or even move up units too soon, they will get pounded. Try the Overlord campaign even at +0 and see.

In the Overlord campaign, as the axis against the AI, I make a u-shaped line from Bordeaux to Paris just out of reach of their fighters. I operate the unit out of Brest (if it manages to survive the first round of attacks) and also operate a few unit from elsewhere. I keep another small force up north to guard Brussells. After he allies take Brest, they suffer supply problems, and when they stretch their line you can start to pick their units off more easily. Eventually you should be able to surround a few units and kick them off of France. If you lose Paris or give them some other source of supply then you are in trouble.

[Sol Invictus]

I'm going through the hell of a D-Day landing at the moment in a PBEM game. I tried to do a quickie mid '42 sneak attack and am in the process of losing what was a very tight game. Poor execution; I accidently attacked with an army before I moved it off the beach thereby not leaving my HQ any room to land and leaving my whole force out of supply the next turn, DOH, and minimal air cover. Hoped that the element of surprise would tip the balance; it didnt. Thats all my fault but I do think that a 3rd Reich type of beach assault would be much better and realistic and solve the problems that have been mentioned. As it is the game does an exceptable job of it but I feel it could do better. Quit laughing Titan; I hear you.

[Sol Invictus]

Had to put my son to bed and couldnt finish my thoughts. The main problem with amphibious invasions as I see it are twofold. First, there is no way to achieve suprise since you have to park the landing craft off the coast for one turn before they can land. This is all the time needed for the German to throw a few corps onto the beaches and at a minimum, split your invasion force into separate sections. Second, there is an absolute need to capture a port very soon after the invasion and this is very hard to do. Should be impossible in the first couple of turns unless the German is sleeping. I think 1.4 might partially fix this if I'm reading it right. Otherwise, the Allies need some way to supply the invasion minus a port, i.e. a Mulberry, after the first turn of the landing. Add this and a few hexes in N. Africa and we're on our way to making this great game better. Not saying an amphibious invasion should be a cakewalk but it needs some streamlining.

[Rediroc]

Originally posted by mateos66:

[QB]There were two strategies discussed by the Germans on how to defeat an invasion of France - the "wall" vs mobility. The wall idea was Hilters (and pretty stupid) while the idea of mobility was von Rundstedt. Rundstedt wanted to hold everything back away from the navy and air power, and then throw it at the allies after they landed.

Actually, the wall idea was also shared by Rommel. He wanted the panzer divisions stationed near possible landing beaches, to push them back into the sea. Hitler simply comprimised between Rommel and Rundstedt and put them at the half way point. Rundstedt believed in the panzers as a reserve force, whereas Rommel knew the effects of Allied air superiority on soldiers. Thats why he wanted a minimum of travel time for the panzers to the beach after a landing. So I guess in hindsight, Rommel's idea, the wall, is best.

[ September 09, 2002, 11:47 PM: Message edited by: Rediroc ]