Free French and Polish Forces

[Liam]

http://perso.wanadoo.fr/lepoilu/ww2/ww2ffintro.htm

an interesting site about Free French Units and their slight distrust of their British Ally under Legion de Gualle...over 100k in men in Britian. Though not as many served

[Dan Fenton]

JersyJohn, I am confused. As I understand it, a certain percent of the remaining French forces at the fall of France would be Free French. But if all of the army, navy and air force was destroyed in an valient attempt for France to survive longer, that would leave an ending military force of zero. Zero times any percent is zero. This could create another but less gamey option of trying to keep all the French forces intact while losing. Either way, I do like your idea better that the current one in the game.

May I expand upon another idea? Free French willing men arrive in the UK willing to fight. But they have no equipment and many hate the UK for abandoning France in its hour of need.

I suggest instead giving the UK the option of building one Free French (FF) corps, at a steep discount. After the purchase, the corps would function just like a UK corps with all UK HQ and Tech bonuses. After all, this corps would have UK equipment and training.

Upon the entry of the US, the US has an option of building one FF army, at a steep discount. Frenchmen who hated the UK now had a real alternative option to fight the Axis. The US also had more money and equipment than the UK. The US FF army would function just like a US army with all HQ and Tech bonuses. It would have US equipment and training. If the UK is conquered, UK FF units become US FF units.

If France is liberated, its MMP's are used to create unlimited new full price UK or US FF units or to repair existing UK or US FF units, rather than to build a new all French national military.

To further build upon this idea. Certain diplomative actions by the Axis would generate more discount UK or US FF units to be purchased. On the other hand, certain Allied actions would remove FF units from purchase. All said actions would influence mainland Vichy, North African Vichy and Syrian Vichy and their fleets to convert to either full FF areas with their units, or to becoming a full German minor ally with their units. This could be engineered to truly discourage UK invasions of Ireland, etc. and German invasions of Spain, etc.

[JerseyJohn]

Dan

". . . if all of the army, navy and air force was destroyed in an valient attempt for France to survive longer, that would leave an ending military force of zero. Zero times any percent is zero. This could create another but less gamey option of trying to keep all the French forces intact while losing.

Yes, I love the way these things turn out!

You have a great idea. As a matter of fact I'd support yours instead of the one I proposed earlier. It's simpler and works better.

Incorporating that Idea I'd suggest the following:

1) The units described be designated Free Forces rather than Free French in order to represent the diverse nationalities involved.

2) As the UK did not allow Syria to remain Vichy, and would not have regardless of circumstances, that the country remain Allied after the French Collapse. It would be garrisoned by a Free Forces Corps in Beirut.

3) Another Free Forces Corps immediately appears east of Alexandria to represent French colonials and escaped Poles who made it to Egypt. Historically LeClairc's command made one of the most incredible treks in military history for exactly this purpose and Polish troops in the Soviet Union were reluctantly released by Stalin to join the British in the Middle East.

4) A Third Free Forces Corps appears near Manchester to represent French and Polish soldiers arrived from the continent.

5) When the United States enters the war a Free Forces ARMY also appears near Manchester. If the UK has been conquered by then it appears in Canada. If Canada has been conquered it appears near Washington -- by then it would also represent free Englishmen and Canadians!

6) There would be no cost for any of these units. It would be assumed enough military equipment was salvaged from France or taken with them to cover their initial Allied muster.

If destroyed, none of these units can be rebuilt.

7) As proposed by Panzer_39, there is a 75% chance any research advances will go to the surviving Ally, and a 25% chance it will go to the nation's conqueror.

7a) If the advance is already possessed by the conqueror but not by the Ally, the Ally will receive it automatically. If the advance is already possessed by the Ally but not the conqueror, the Conqueror will automatically receive it.

8) All research credits will pass to the surviving Ally up to ten; the total above that will be converted into 50% MPP value and added to the conqueror's plunder total.

[ June 03, 2003, 11:01 PM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ]

[JerseyJohn]

Liam,

Yes, Italy did have some great aviation accomplishments in the 1920s and 30s. Ultimately it was greater British and German wealth that pushed Italy farther back in the research race. That, and the fact so much of what remained went in to conquering Ethiopia and in helping Franco in the Spanish Civil War.

In many ways the initial decision by Goering and Udet to stick with propeller technology made sense. What didn’t make sense was the way they totally sacked the jet research program, even to the extent of allowing jet technicians to called up for military service!

[ June 03, 2003, 11:06 PM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ]

[Edwin P.]

Also in reference to the ideas proposed by Panzer_39 and elaborated on by JerseyJohn

1. DeGaulle HQ Unit

I support the idea of a DeGaulle Unit in the UK HQ list, but I would also have a chance for it to appear as a free bonus unit with a reduced strength of 1 that the UK could reinforce. This would effectively cut the price of the unit by 50%.

Basically, for each turn that France survives the chance for receiving a DeGaulle bonus unit would increase by 5%. Thus France which fell in 10 turns would only have a 50% of receiving a bonus DeGaulle HQ, if they held out for 15 turns the chance increases to 75%. Ah, the randomness of war.

2. Tech when a country Falls

I agree that the UK would have shared its technolgy with the US if it was in danger of falling to the Germans and the sharing strategy proposed would go a long way towards balancing the game as each major nation fell.

3. I think that giving the UK a bonus Free French corps at a greatly discounted price (ie Strength of 1) is a good idea, but I would also have it be based on how long France survived against Germany, as the longer that France holds out the more Frenchmen can cross the English Channel.

And as Dan suggested perhaps a -20% penalty to the chance of this occuring the Allies attacked Ireland or the Low Countries.

4. Simialarly for the Free Poles unit, a corps unit with a strength of 1 that could be reinforced by the Brits if they wanted to spend the resources.

Now comes the hard part, playtesting these proposed changes to make sure that they don't tilt the game balance too far one way or the other.

[ June 04, 2003, 01:52 AM: Message edited by: Edwin P. ]

[Desert Dave]

As originally posted by JerseyJohn:

The truth is, in games, we confuse the French Underground with the Free French forces.

And we STILL are if we are asking for more than ONE Corps sized unit.

I guess I don't understand how everyone requests a couple of Corps here, and an Army there and another AF and a this and a that.

You may add up numbers of French soldiers loyal to the Ancien Regime and arrive at a figure that would, ON PAPER, amount to an Army and a Navy and an Air Force.

BUT, they, no matter how Romanticized, or how much we want to balance this game... WOULD NOT, and DID NOT have ANY effect on WW2, either in the desert, or on the plains or in the wide blue sky.

Hemingway, arriving in Paris in a jeep, had MORE actual impact on the Western Front than any aggregate Free French.

Do I like the French? They're OK. I have supported them on those recent occasions when others have bashed them due to alleged conspiracy against America (... as if NO OTHER Nation on Earth wouldn't look out for it's own best interest!).

But, I am still waiting for someone to supply the specific battles and the significant outcomes that would demonstrate the justification for more than ONE Corps? :confused:

[JerseyJohn]

Immer

"Hemingway, arriving in Paris in a jeep, had MORE actual impact on the Western Front than any aggregate Free French."

Agreed. According to Hemingway he got into Paris ahead of everyone else and was part of his own commando band consisting of old Brother's of The Bottle Fraternity members. He claims to have engaged in numerous skirmishes he couldn't discuss because fighting violated his journalist status. His numerous detractors have not been charitable with his remarks. As one of his life-long fans (his short stories from the 1920s are his real masterpieces) I'd like to stick up for him, but by 1944 he was too involved in living up to the ridiculous image he'd helped create and was ultimately stuck with. Anyway, I'm sure that he and his Band of Brothers liberated the finest wine Paris had to offer.

The reason I propose to change the name from Free French to Free Forces is to bring it a step away from giving them the exaggerated importance they currently have.

By the same token it must be said that both the Free French and Free Poles who fought during the entire Mediterranean Campaign, as part of the Eighth Army in North Africa, Sicily and Italy, that they were fine soldiers and shed a lot of blood for the cause.

Naturally you're right, their role as an armed force has been grossly overplayed during and since the war. The Free French and Free Poles did not have large units with their own identity, and mainly they were integrated as small units into larger UK formations. Numerically there were quite a few of them, however. As you say, perhaps enough to form a few SC sized units, but nothing like what we're talking about creating.

In place of the Free French or even the Free Forces, I'd prefer to see a full strength and completely cost free Common Wealth corps appear in Egypt in July 1940 whether France falls or not. The unit could represent the additional Indian, New Zealand, Australian and South African units augmenting those already in the Eighth Army along with the Free French and Free Poles. Beyond that it would be good to award the UK a one-time MPP bonus when France surrenders in place of the mass exodus.

In answer to your question, I don’t think the Free French were ever the deciding factor in any major action. Their big chance came at Dakar, where the Vichy defenders drove them off!

Being fair to the Free French, they were neither equipped for decisive action nor intended to fill that role till after the Normandy breakout. Which I’m sure you’re aware of and also that it is part of your point about forming them into corps and army sized units.

"And another thing, Rick, you ought to keep in mind that Vichy won at Dakar!"

"Sure, Louie, and you keep in mind who you were up against."

[ June 04, 2003, 11:32 AM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ]

[xwormwood]

In many ways the initial decision by Goering and Udet to stick with propeller technology made sense. What didn’t make sense was the way they totally sacked the jet research program, even to the extent of allowing jet technicians to called up for military service!

They even sacked a lot of propeller research.

Heinkel had the HE 100 D plane, which was even better than the ME 109 in 1939, but he was forced to stop building this little jewel (which was later sold to Japan & USSR).

http://www.geocities.com/lastdingo/aviation/he100.htm

Maybe the problem was more the "we-love-Messerschmidt-and-Heinkel-sucks"-concept (it was Heinkel who shot the first jet *HE 178* into the european air in 1939) rather than a "we-hate-jets"-concept.

http://www.allstar.fiu.edu/aero/HEINHE-178.htm

[JerseyJohn]

xwormwood

Great photo and a great point.

Goering, Udet and to a lesser extent Milch made many mistakes in handling the Luftwaffe both before and after the Invasion of Poland. In another instance, Goering decided to cut back on fighter production on the very day the Luftwaffe had it's heaviest losses over Britain!

Add to that the policy of moving skilled fighter pilots into bombers to be served up on a platter.

The Reich was an amazing combination of incredible skill and incredible incompetence -- often from the same individuals!

[Desert Dave]

As originally posted by JerseyJohn:

In place of the Free French or even the Free Forces, I'd prefer to see a full strength and completely cost free Common Wealth corps appear in Egypt in July 1940 whether France falls or not.

This would work nicely... the "Free Forces" would be comprised of all those various refugees from The Blitz, to include the Poles... although, an argument could be made that they should have their own Corps, eventually.

I would favor a 50-50% split on possible appearance of the Free Forces Corps.

a) Appear near Suez.

Appear in Britain 6 months or so after the first American ground unit lands there.

Perhaps there should be some MPP expense involved in reconstitution... I do like the ideas expressed so far where size of Corps and available MPPs gifted to Britain would be based on how long France holds out, AND how many units are evacuated. Even ONE unit out and you receive considerably less MPPs. :cool:

No problem with the small DeGaulle HQ either.

Also, I would campaign for Syria and Iraq to go over to the Allies on a random chance basis, within reasonable historical dates.

----------------------------------

****As for Hemingway, surely you are correct that he "stage managed" many of his combat experiences (... his "explosive gestalt" in WW1 MAY have had something to do with his need for constant re-enactment of an old, festering wound, yes?), including the wild, but entertaining idea that he hunted down Subs in the Carib.

As with S Freud and Jack Kerouac, he is grossly misunderstood and too often criticized, IMHO, for the wrong reasons, usually having to do with post modern deconstruction nonsense (or, plainly, PC BS) that was started by such philosophical Mouses that roared... as Lacan and Foucault.

And yea, the Nick Adams short stories are right up there with Whitman's Leaves of Grass as the very best of American Literature.

[JerseyJohn]

Immer

Agreed on your entire posting all the way through. I think the Free Forces idea is coming together nicely.

The Hemingway sub-hunting adventures in the Caribean were a riot. In a sense he was being more honest with that then he was in a lot of other things and serving a good purpose, augmenting regular Naval patrols. I like the crazy plan for dealing with a U-boat in the unlikely event they ever came across one.

The good thing about these three misunderstood fellows, is their works have endured longer than their critics.

You've talked me into it, my worn out copy of E. H's short stories needs another, and immediate re-reading. If I locate Leaves of Grass it will be next on the list. Glad you brought them up.

[ June 04, 2003, 02:57 PM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ]

[SeaWolf_48]

Long over due subject about countries conquered by Nazi jackbooted thugs. The Polish had the most troops to fight against the Germans until france was liberated. Much of Churchills time was spent trying to convince Uncle Joe to release the Polish troops to the British, and in the end the Polish had four divisions. Should have one Corps in the game. The french had less troops in British uniforms, until America came to Europe and then She was burdened with DeGualle and the french problem. france could have one army corps in the game until france is liberated. The game is okay after the liberation of Paris!

My big question about the french is there fleet after the fall of france. The British had to sink several capitol ships because of french suspections. How too portray this in the game would be neat. Also france held Madagascar and were willing to allow the Japs to use it for a base in the Indian ocean. The Brit's attack it to stop Japanese desires in South African waters. The french also used Dakar as a navel base, inwhich the Germans wanted to use for U-Boats. Again what to do with the large french fleet in Algeria after the fall of france?