Russian Play Balance

[DevilDog]

Having grown bored with the limited options available for conquest in the short demo, I decided to play a hot seat game against myself (ensuring that I would achieve victory, yet, paradoxically guaranteeing that I would suffer defeat).

I sold off France's military and let Germany overun them by turn two (ironically France had over 1300 MPPs in the coffers when she capitulated yet Germany only got 800). Germany invaded Russia in turn two with three tanks, four corps, three armies, three planes and two HQs.

I sold off Vichy's miltary and conquered them with Italy, thus ensuring Italy would be some help during the war.

I decided to retreat Russian forces into the interior instead of defend in place, to allow the Germans to conquer half of Russia. Not having the chance to play Russia before, I was suprised at how many units they had and the low manufacturing cost. I decided to fight it out on a line around Moscow.

Even down to just over 300 MPPs per turn, the Russians held off the Germans and destroyed several tank groups. If I had fought back earlier the Germans would have been slaughtered. I wonder if the Russian forces, economy and industry start off too strong. Historically Allied industry, particularly American, saved Russia. Yes they had massive man power reserves, but after Barbarosa they lost most of their industry for six? months while relocating to the Urals. Russia certainly shouldn't get an industrial bonus.

My German forces could have been built up slightly more prior to invasion, but I don't think it will ever be enough to be decisive under the current set up (and you'll never face an opponent who gives up half of Russia without a fight). By November I had five German and two Italian tank groups, three German and one Italian HQ, three German planes, about 9-10 German armies and 4 Italian and 4 minor axis armies and numerous corps (but not enough) in Russia. But it wasn't enough to produce decisive results against the remaining Russian units.

Basically, each conquered city must be garisoned, but there is no way to even come close to this with the MPP levels at current settings. I don't think the axis even has a chance due to the terrific Russian game economy. Russian industrial might was brought to bear in later war years, but seems much too strong for '40 and '41.

On a side note, I don't understand everyone who has been complaining about out of supply rules and surrounded cities. I surrounded Lenningrad and the garrison unit was unable to reinforce itself when it took damage. When I wiped out that unit, I had no one left to take the city, so I thought the Germans would be screwed as the Russians could just pop a replacement army into the city. But no new army was allowed to be placed in the now empty city. Also, surrounded units had their movement seriously slashed, and their fighting ability plumeted. Out of supply effects seem properly modeled to me.

In some areas to the south I was not allowed to reinforce depleted units, at various times. Is this a bug, or is it modeled in to represent bad roads and difficult transit in Russia?

Anyway, I think the game engine is sound, MPP values just need to be tweeked. Not a big issue though, as they will be alterable in the editor.

Good job Hubert!

-EDIT-

The other option, which has been mentioned in other threads is to adjust the suprise effects. Out of supply units are weak enough to be easily eliminated by advancing german units, yet when they present a semi solid front where you can't envelop the units without running into and being "suprised" by them, the Germans just don't stand a chance against the "economic might" of the Soviets. Skew the negative suprise effects on the rear area defender and the Germans will have a fighting chance. (I know it's probably extremely difficult codewise to differentiate between front line and rear area units)

[ June 03, 2002, 08:39 AM: Message edited by: DevilDog ]

[Ancient One]

I don't think that USSR production is unbalanced. I think the key factor here is that you attacked on turn 2, you're supposed to build up your forces for a while before attacking.

[DevilDog]

That's what I'm saying. There are a lot of Russian units even on turn 2 of the demo. These units will increase over time. At the scale the game engine is built on, you can only squeeze so many units on a border, even if you line them up two deep. So even with a few more units, I don't see achieving very impressive results as the Germans against the Russians. Perhaps if you pour all your money into research to upgrade your units?

Anyway, it's possible it'll look different when playing out the whole war.

[Ancient One]

Originally posted by DevilDog:

That's what I'm saying. There are a lot of Russian units even on turn 2 of the demo. These units will increase over time.

The number of Soviet units almost doubles at the beginning of 1941, but remain static before that. The 5% of their total production they get each turn while neutral is just accumulated and can't be spent before entering the war.

Originally posted by DevilDog:

At the scale the game engine is built on, you can only squeeze so many units on a border, even if you line them up two deep. So even with a few more units, I don't see achieving very impressive results as the Germans against the Russians. Perhaps if you pour all your money into research to upgrade your units?

I've acheived very impressive results against the AI (capturing Moscow), the invasion beginning in late August, although admittedly a human opponent would take more care to preserve Soviet units. If you wait for Romania to join you before attacking, you can deploy some units there and attack the USSR along a much broader front.

[Wolfe]

Originally posted by Ancient One:

I've acheived very impressive results against the AI (capturing Moscow), the invasion beginning in late August

Yeah, I just did the same thing against the AI. I didn't wait for Hungary or Bulgaria, and just plowed in with:

8 Army Groups

4 Corps

4 Tank Groups

5 Air Fleet

I ended with 7 more Corps and 4 more Tank Groups in-country. That doesn't include the 4 Finns who mostly got punished by two Soviet Army Groups or the Hungarians/Bulgarians/Romanians, who joined late never left fired shot or left their own territory.

I got all the way to the Urals and completely cut off Moscow from its supplies. I hadn't taken even half of his cities, but by the last turn the Soviets only collected 190 MPP. Germany got 365 and Italy 133. Here are the end pics right before I ended my last turn (250K):

World Map

Moscow Surrounded

After hitting Done, all the cities and mines outside my grey/brown "land blockade" halve their production values. This is against the AI, of course; he doesn't seem particularly interested in charging across the channel into my lightly defended rear.

I did my best to cut off and kill individual units. If some cities were defended by a number of units, I just went around and let him attack me, then hit him with Air the next turn and finished off his cut-off units with my Inf and tanks. If I wasn't certain I could kill an enemy unit on that turn, I would choose another target or reinforce and wait 'til next turn to do the deed. Seemed to work well.

But I began to find out how bad supply hurts in this one. Some of my more adventurous tanks and corps (way out front) found themselves without supply at all, with virtually no attack prowess, and limited movement. I just wish the game had a way of showing you this on each unit without having to click on it. Something like TOAW's health button which changes color for supply and readiness levels would be a Godsend.

- Chris

[ June 01, 2002, 10:31 PM: Message edited by: Wolfe ]

[BloodyBucket]

Originally posted by Wolfe:

... I just wish the game had a way of showing you this on each unit without having to click on it. Something like TOAW's health button which changes color for supply and readiness levels would be a Godsend.

- Chris

Agreed. Really agreed. Astonishingly and completely agreed. Hear, hear!

[Titan]

Wolfe, that is interesting and well done.

Got me to thinking if you started the game in 39 what you may have done by now.

I hope there will be some improvements,if you can defeat france and Russia in such a short space of time i think not many games will go until 45 thats for sure,but im Sure Hurbert has improved a few things for the retail version.

[Mexicano]

I also would like to see supply and readiness levels graphically displayed in the game...

Mexicano

[Wolfe]

Originally posted by Titan:

Wolfe, that is interesting and well done.

Got me to thinking if you started the game in 39 what you may have done by now.

I hope there will be some improvements,if you can defeat france and Russia in such a short space of time i think not many games will go until 45 thats for sure,but im Sure Hurbert has improved a few things for the retail version.

Thanks! I'm not sure, but this particular scenario may not really be representative of how the game always plays. When the AI plays as the Germans, it's content to take the Low Countries and France and then sit on its hands. And as Allies, it generally won't re-invade Europe. I had good luck with this invasion (have done it twice) in that the AI will sometimes choose to leave some cities to their fate rather than subbornly defend if I even remotely threaten Moscow (it will Operate multiple units surrounding other cities back to Moscow in order to defend against my probe). This helped a lot in accelerating my advance. Though most of my units behind Moscow are currently out of supply. So my position is a bit tenuous.

Speaking of supply, I have to wonder exactly how this works. My tanks and units far out eastward are at 0 or 2 supply levels. But even my HQs are at either 5 or 8! I assume it's because I'm so far from Berlin, but this does seem a bit extreme, particularly since my units aren't cut-off. Is there a way to mitigate this? Does stringing HQs out along the route of advance help?

Rommel HQ supply

And it really hurts to go into North Africa without an HQ. And of course, no supply means no reinforcements.

It'll be interesting to see how SuperTed does now that the Bolsheviks have declared war on him.

- Chris

[ June 02, 2002, 04:58 PM: Message edited by: Wolfe ]

[John DiFool]

Originally posted by Wolfe:

Speaking of supply, I have to wonder exactly how this works. My tanks and units far out eastward are at 0 or 2 supply levels. But even my HQs are at either 5 or 8! I assume it's because I'm so far from Berlin, but this does seem a bit extreme, particularly since my units aren't cut-off. Is there a way to mitigate this? Does stringing HQs out along the route of advance help?

- Chris

I think it has something to do with the 'scorched

earth' policy-all those cities you just took (most pertinently in this case-Smolensk) start at a zero supply level. Actually does a good job of simulating the poor German logistical situation-at least at first (tho that really should be built into the game somehow-I dislike being able to 'pump up' all depleted units with my only limit being my MPPs...).

John DiFool

[DevilDog]

OK, ignore my original post. I played a game against the AI where after I took France and the Low Countries I made preparations as if I would invade Russia for after the demo time would run out.

I ended up with level 5 industrial technology and 360+ MPPs per turn (after Hungary, Rumania, etc joined the Axis cause). Needless to say, even at 480 or so MPPs, Russia will not be able to keep up with Germany under these circumstances. In any event the editor will allow everyone to tweek settings enough to get balanced play against the AI.

[ June 03, 2002, 08:36 AM: Message edited by: DevilDog ]

[Wolfe]

Originally posted by John DiFool:

I think it has something to do with the 'scorched

earth' policy-all those cities you just took (most pertinently in this case-Smolensk) start at a zero supply level.

Well, it also happens in North Africa. Landing a unit on Italian soil, he has 0 supply even though there is a friendly base with a port nearby. I assume this is meant to 'encourage' the use of HQs, but it seems a bit much to me.

North Africa no supply

DevilDog wrote:

OK, ignore my original post.

Actually it was a good observation; you *can* bleed the enemy white, slowing his attack to a crawl if the initial push doesn't go as well as planned. Even playing with exactly the same saved game that went very well, if I can't completely kill off a number of units early on, the AI can bring them back up to level 10, grinding my blitzkrieg to a halt. It doesn't take much to change the course of a campaign in this game.

I ended up with level 5 industrial technology

Yeah, I think this is by far the most important research technology to develop. Having tried advanced strategic bombers, better tanks, and jet fighters, these things are *expensive* to reinforce. Getting not just initial costs down, but also the upkeep is a huge plus. It even lessens the cost of transporting units, making the Operate function even more useful.

- Chris

[John DiFool]

Just bumping this one up because I wanted to point out something which a few people have mentioned but may not have made clear...

Why did the Germans typically launch their offensives in late June/early July? The weather of course, which would allow for maximum gains while it stayed clear, dry and warm. The problem with SC as it is currently is that there isn't any impetus to more or less compel the Germans to attack when the turns go to 4 a month: because income is the same no matter the length of the turn, it doesn't matter when they attack (aside from considerations of building up a sizable reserve before attacking of course).

You might as well break the year down into 27 equal periods of time (~two weeks) because each turn is the same (ships also move the same no matter when). And of course the Russians won't get all those extra MPPs they should get during the winter months to build themselves back up, so they will be constantly and desperately on the defensive, trying to rebuild all the units they lost the previous turn, over and over.

Just thought I'd make that clear. I won't even go into Mud (rasputista) effects on movement...

John DiFool