Spain and Turkey

[Terif]

- To fail with LC turn 1 costs the game for Allies, so the risk is in deed unacceptable. But it is not so low:

Allies can only do 7 damage in average with their 3 ground units at it (3+2+2), then they have only 2 AFs + 1 bomber in range. If no enemy air would be present, then they would add another 3 average damage (= 10 in total). But since they are always intercepted by the german AFs, these 3 expected losses are usually reduced to 1-2, makes expected losses for Brussel of 8-9. So chances to take it are pretty small for Allies, at least too small for the risk they would take.

- For Italy you need a hex near Brussel AND a hex near Maginot. You can also take a Maginot hex, doesn´t matter. So if you destroy a fort and have another unit near Brussel, then italian readiness will increase. The broke through unit usually can´t be destroyed by Allies since they can´t reach it with their AFs or carriers. But to avoid this, Allies can operate Malta AF and/or the polish AF into Maginot. But Germany doesn´t need it since it is better to go via LC anyway.

[komninosm]

So how about the Swiss question?

[Terif]

Swiss:

They don´t start with supply, but are practically invulnerable during the first turn (expected losses always 0) - so it is even more unattractive to attack them, which is not to recommand anyway. You can only attack them when USA+Russia are in the war and in a longer game you will need them to block the allied advance or you have good chances to loose Italy.

[hellraiser]

posted by Yoda: 'Longterm a LC gambit is a clear and huge disadvantage for Allies due to the delayed US/russian and early italian entry - so if Axis reaches Paris, Allies can usually surrender too.'

I doubt that - under a LC gambit, allies do not DOW Ireland so it is not that bad. Yoda is trying to educate ppl not to use 'gamble strategies', based on rolls and luck. But this is questionable - in real wars, often the winner is the one who takes chances, against all odds sometimes. But, indeed, extreme luck/rolls kinda strip the game of its flavour.

[Terif]

@hellraiser:

Yep, I see not much sense in playing roulette in a strategy game, especially if you have similar odds .

Against a good axis player you can only do a LC gambit turn 1 which will fail in most cases, so you will loose many games/tries already in turn 1.

Even if you succeed and get Brussel, then Russia is delayed 1-2 turns and USA 4-6 turns. Since Germany normally attacks LC - in contrary to Ireland - it also affects Russia and not only USA like an Ireland attack and for USA it counts double too: the missing attack from Germany + the allied attack. BTW not attacking Ireland is another disadvantage for Allies since they are missing the mpps+experience from it.

Italy will join already turn 3-5 giving Axis a lot more mpps than normal and they are able to conquer the Med already before the fall of France improving the situation even more...

In the end a LC gambit tipp the balance in average around 2500 mpps in favour of Axis - and so long you will (nearly) never delay Axis in France to compensate that. OK, if you are able to stop Axis in France you win, but against a good and patient opponent you will need extreme luck - but what does it make for a sense to throw perhaps 10-20 games away to finally win 1 simply by luck ?

SC is a strategy game or at least should it be, if someone wants to play roulette, he should better go to the casino .

[Blashy]

Wars are not won by gambling.

They are won by decoding the enigma machine and knowing what your enemy is doing all the time, hehe.

j/k

[komninosm]

But why are the Swiss near invulnerable in the first turn? Is it a special setting or what? How did Hubert accomplish it if not by supply?

BTW, how much do they increase USA or USSR readiness and do they increase Italy readiness?

[Terif]

Don´t know why Swiss in near invulnerable the first turn, but it can´t be because of Supply cause even with entrenchment removed, HQ supported armies do 0 damage. However, it is good that Swiss is not that easy anyway.

If you attack Swiss before USA/Russia/Italy have joined, then they really don´t like it and readiness raises a lot, so only a fool would do it at that time - just start a single game and DoW it, then you see it .

[komninosm]

Yes, I heard they were quite ready for mountain warfare if it came to that (I know you meant it in game-balance terms and not historical though) so it must be a hardcoded thing. Was it like this from version 1.01?

I tried a few tests and I got as low as +3% USSR readiness and 10% USA and Italy showed no readiness changes at all. But I guess it can be as big as +6/+20% or about that right? Personally I think that's a bit low for what Switzerland was. I think if Hitler attacked it it would bring many nations into the war immediately.

Still it could be an alternate way into France if you're having trouble, but the 1st turn near invulnerability allows the Allies to cover that front too so it's unlikely to help.

[hellraiser]

'In the end a LC gambit tipp the balance in average around 2500 mpps in favour of Axis ' - posted by Terif

Yeah...but minus the german units lost when trying to cross the Rhine

Plus the chance of a late France - the later france falls, the less mpps/turn from the minor raping fest.

Frankly, I would do it if the opportunity arises ... but not turn 1 -> it is a pure gamble if axis has the air in west (and they do have it 99% of the times, unles axis go for ZCC:P )

[hellraiser]

You know that 'LC gambit' was a defence option analysed by the western allies during the early stages of the war. They didn't go for it, so France was lost