Spain and Turkey

[komninosm]

I've been trying to get them to join Axis with mixed results.

I've found out that Turkey doesn't need you to have Romania, Hungary and Bulgaria allied, simply not enemies and within timeframe of joining.

My first try was a normal landing of big land forces near London, proceeding to lay siege to the new capital and taking it in a couple of turns. Spain and Turkey both joined, but it was too soon for Romania and the rest to join, so they never did.

The problem I got was that when I once had UK totally devastated, fleet sunk, airforce killed, army destroyed and I landed only a couple of corps for fun, Spain and Turkey wouldn't join. I took the Scapa port and Edinborough but I stayed 2 hexes away from London and Manchester so as not to increase USA and USSR war readiness. But then I couldn't get Spain or Turkey to join no matter what I tried. I tried taking Manchester first and it didn't increase any war readiness if I only put a unit in the city and nothing in surrounding hexes (I had a lot of airfleets and long range 2), but I didn't get Spain when I approached London (or take it). I tried taking London first and the surrounding the empty Manchester and wating a few turns, even after USA and USSR join, but no dice.

My question is how is the chance to join Axis calculated for Spain and Turkey?

[komninosm]

Hmm, on second thought I think Vichy France may be the cause. In my first try I didn't attack it before Spain and Turkey joined I think, but I don't have any saves to check. In my second try I looked at the saves and it was under my control before I attacked the UK.

[Terif]

Spain and Turkey need certain conditions to join Axis and there is no random factor. If these conditons are fullfilled they join guaranteed, else they have no chance to join:

- Axis needs at least 2 units around London and 1 unit around Manchester

- Russia is still neutral (Russia in the war means no Spain/Turkey)

-> Under these 2 conditions Spain will join.

These 2 conditions + Yugoslavia and Greece are conquered by Axis AND at least either Hungary or Romania has joined, then additionally Turkey will join Axis.

[jon_j_rambo]

"This young warrior has many questions. May the force be with you." --- Yodl

[komninosm]

Thanks for the info. So Vichy plays no role at all? Back to conquering it I guess.

So I have to have 2 units near London, is that 1 hex or 2, or can it be inside London? Do I have to have London conquered or simply sieged? Does Scapa flow or Edinborough matter at all?

I knew about Greece and Yugoslavia, but not about Russia. It didn't affect my tests though since it never joined so early.

PS: I'm pretty sure I've had Turkey join without any of Hungary or Romania, but maybe I don't remember to good.

EDIT: BTW why do axis minors not join after Spain does? Balancing or history/realism?

[Terif]

- units have to be 1 hex from London/Manchester

- units somewhere else don´t matter

- without either Hungary or Romania Axis, Turkey will not join

- you can attack every country (including Vichy) except your minors + Russia and both countries can still join

- Axis minors don´t join when Spain is not neutral any more, so it is better to wait with bringing it in until Hungary and Romania have joined (Bulgaris only depends on these 2 countries). No minors with Spain in the war is both (more or less) historical and for play balance .

[John DiFool the 2nd]

Yeah but if the Allies attack Spain, the Balkan

minors won't join either (tho wouldn't such an

act by the Allies make it more likely?)

[Terif]

This is a question for our historians and I think there are already several - long...- threads concerning this issue .

Historically you can surely find arguments for both positions (join or not join..), but you will never know for sure.

However, from play balance it is surely better they do not join any more with Spain in the war. And it opens several interesting strategical options .

[jon_j_rambo]

Yodl im Haus

[komninosm]

I tested it and you were absolutely right. Was kinda weird though, I had only 2 corps in UK so I landed an airfleet LOL.

It's also kinda weird how you can land in the UK and take Edinborough and Scapa and not cause an increase in readiness for the Allies. You can even take Manchester if you only leave a unit inside the city and none in the surrounding hexes. Wouldn't it be better to simply count turns that enemy forces were in English ground and start increasing USA readiness after turn 2 and USSR after turn 4 or something like that. And shouldn't near surrender mean something more than 3 units in some hexes, but be relevant to the army strengths of Axis and Allies on the Island or something like that?

Then it wouldn't be too bad if Axis minors were allowed to join after Spain anyway. Then again if the UK is conquered and Axis has the Balkans and Spain and Turkey the game is over already.

[Korut Zelva]

Can Turkey or Spain join after UK surrendered? In other words, does the unit requisite work after they surrendered?

[Terif]

@komninosm:

This is something for Hubert . In SC 1 most things are triggered by a hex ring around the cities. I agree with you that it would be better to have more flexible triggers that don´t depend on certain hexes which a player can avoid when he knows which ones they are. Perhaps in SC 2... .

@Korut Zelva:

Yes, Turkey and Spain can still join after UK surrender - but only as long as Russia is still neutral, so you will rarely see this.

[komninosm]

If he can specify hexes by coordiantes and isn't restrained by distances from cities (and this sounds easy to do in my mind) pehaps he should add a list of all the English hexes to the triggers for war readiness increases and I think the trigger for Spain and Turkey Joining should be London taken and Axis units adjacent to Manchester. Units adjacent to London shouldn't be needed, but London should also be conquered not siezed.

I got Turkey and Spain to join when UK surrendered in the same round, but it's good to know it can happen after that too. Usually I have UK beat before USSR is ready to join and I win, or I simply declare war on the USA to prolong the game and my enjoyment. If that would bring USSR in too, I'm either prepared for them or I simply invade Canada to force the USA to enter the war without a DoW.

I think that by DoWs on Sweden and Vichy and not much else (only Greece and Norway and ofcourse Denmark and LC, later Iraq) increase USA a lot and leave USSR behind and USA starts increasing from Feb 1941, while USSR starts increasing from summer 1941. Also invasion of UK seems to increase USA readiness from turn 1 (of occupying any hexes adjacent to London or Manchester) while the USSR seems to wair a few turns or get lower increases. So I often do get the chance to beat up on the Americans with no USSR yet in the fight.

EDIT: Would it be also possible to launch a surprise invasion with corps and simply occupy the 3 importan hexes to force Spain and Turkey to join and then disband those units to stop increasing readiness? You could even use Airfleets and Bombers to cover up some hexes if your original forces aren't enough or can't accomplish it in 1 turn. For example 1 corps may get destroyed before it lands or the landings available don't allow it to move to 1 of the important hexes but it does make it grey-German, so you move in the Air Force. I think Spain and Turkey joining is important enough to waste an AF or Bomber and one turn's readiness increases.

Am I right?

BTW getting Turkey as ally doesn't increase USSR readiness in later turns does it? (I mean kinda like attacking it or the Baltics does.)

[ June 27, 2005, 06:32 AM: Message edited by: komninosm ]

[komninosm]

I was trying to pull off the risky (gamey) strategy of sacrificing a few corps and maybe even an Air unit to get Turkey and Spain to join, but what I got was an enemy transport sinking my transport. It was a strenght 2 coprs that was surprised (FOW) by an enemy corps transport and sank. I thought transports had 0 combat ability. Is this intended or a bug?

[Korut Zelva]

I once had a transport damage a battleship by surprise. Sh!t happens.

[Terif]

- Yes, theoretically you could only land 3 corps to bring in Spain+Turkey and against the AI it can perhaps even work...you can do a lot of things vs the AI... . But against a human player with only a bit experience this will surely not work.

- during a sealion US readiness starts increasing from the first turn on, while USSR is only affected after January 1941. So an early sealion is very dangerous for Allies and they should always be ready to prevent it.

- in a surprise contact attacker and defender change roles. So the unit that moved and got surprised is now the defender (therefore never move with a sub into a surprise contact since it is has no defence value). The new attacker here also receives a bonus attack value, so a defenceless transport will now have a low attack value when it surprises an enemy ship/transport and can do damage to it.

[komninosm]

Thanks.

I agree on everything. Only a bangled allied job could allow for this trick to ever happen, like too many ships lost, too many UK units lost in France, not enough homeland defense. The hard part is getting a hex near Manchester. London is pretty easy, even if you do sacrifice an air unit. Most times you can even get it back.

I know how surprise works (ie subs) but I don't know the specifics. How big is the bonus? +2? Is it the same for land and sea? How about air? Does intercepting ever have a surprise bonus or only if a land unit steps near an unknown air unit is there surprise?

PS: Shouldn't the surprise bonus be a percentage like 50% of defender attack value or something so that non-combatant units aren't affected?

[Terif]

- Air can´t be surprised since it doesn´t move. If it gets destroyed a surprise contact is displayed, but it is only a normal interception battle.

- Surprise bonus depends on the unit types involved. Between land units there seems to be no extra bonus, but since attacker and defender changes roles and the attack value is usually a lot better than the defence value a surprised unit suffers more than enough penalty and gets also stopped during its movement and can´t attack any more. Same applies for contacts between battleships. Only transports and HQs receive a real extra bonus that seems to be random in a range of 0-2.

In any case, it is usually better to avoid surprise contacts. Reconnaissance is very important in SC, so never move into unknown terrain when you don´t know where the enemy units are located. Use air and cheap corps to spot the enemy units first or move forward in the right order so you will not be surprised by enemy units since this is nearly always a disadvantage.

Except for sometimes in France where it can be advantageous since there every conquered hex is important - as long as you can´t see an enemy unit, it doesn´t block you via zone of control so you can enter without a ZOC action point penalty.

[komninosm]

With FoW on I thought there may be surprise interceptions/escorts or something (from hidden units). Obviously you can't move air units like land units.

I also know how to leapfrog units. One weird thing I saw one day was the AI cheating. It moved a Carrier and spotted my sub and then that very Carrier launched an attack on it. I know I can't do it myself and am 100% sure my sub was hidden before (I checked with FoW off) so I think the AI can cheat like that.

I also think that if you declare war to a country (like Vichy) you have a surprise bonus the first turn, but if you get a surprise contact (ie send a tank to the Marseile corps) you lose the surprise bonus. I also think you lose mountain (terrain) bonuses, maybe. At least tried a few tests there. I had 3 tanks to take Marseile in 1 turn. I did 0-4 with each on attack, but when surprised I had 1-3 or something like that. It didn't seem to matter whether I was surprised at the mountain hex or not.

I also know of the trick to move into a hex with 2 enemy units adjacent to it when one is still hidden. I think I have also forced hidden entrenched/fortified units to attack by surprising me because it wears them down faster in that first hit, sometimes. I know it doesn't lose entrenchment this way, but I usually do this when I expect them to run on the next turn or when I only have 1 unit left to move and so whatever entrenchment the enemy lost would get back by next turn.

[komninosm]

BTW, when the Allies declare war on LC and get it (it can be done in turn 1 with average rolls*) how does Italian readiness increase? I read there has to be an Axis unit on a hex adjacent to Brussels for 10% each turn, but I also read somewhere else you have to attack the maginot line too (sounded wrong). Also, what if the Allies also take the River hex next to Brussels by the coast so you can't reach it? If they get lucky rolls they can get a French army or a UK corps there (if they don't use the UK corps to attack by putting the BB in the port and landing in Calai in 1 turn).

On the other hand if they get bad rolls and don't get the LC it can be pretty frustrating. Italy will join if Axis can get a Corps near Brussels (though you can attack it with armies (HQ too), Air, Battleships and Carriers.

On the original subject (kinda) isn't it weird that you can take even London and provided you only have a unit inside it and none in the surrounding hexes you don't increase any readiness? You can also land a HQ (or other unit) via the port and move it to the south hex and then 1 more to the west and be safe. You can also land in south england west of London or Northern England and keep pushing without affecting readiness. It really needs rethinking (then again with the bids it becomes less problematic).

[ June 30, 2005, 08:20 AM: Message edited by: komninosm ]

[Terif]

- if you DoW a country then it will be surprised and its units have no supply during this first turn. An exception is Russia, as the only country its units start supplied during the first turn.

- Allies can attack LC turn 1, but in HvsH games this is only a gamble with very poor chances to succeed that you will nearly never see in TCP/IP games (and if someone does it in PBEM, then you know what you have to think of him ).

Since Germany will have AFs in range, chances to conquer Brussel are very low: if it fails Allies have lost and can surrender. Even if they get it they will still have not enough units to protect all spots and german units will soon break through the thin lines. An experienced german commander will have no real problem getting Italy in the war and breaking through the Allied defence lines - only extremely bad luck can prevent this, nearly impossible in an online game . Longterm a LC gambit is a clear and huge disadvantage for Allies due to the delayed US/russian and early italian entry - so if Axis reaches Paris, Allies can usually surrender too.

BTW: to get Italy in the war, you need a unit near Brussel AND a unit near Maginot (i.e. +10% italian readiness/turn). If the river hex is occupied by Allies, you can kill it with 2 ground units and your AFs.

[willebra]

Tanks don't seem to go to defense, when they are surprised. Their soft defence is quite high and they don't benefit of it in surprise contacts: they seem to suffer some other penalty too.

[komninosm]

Terif, I noticed that Swiss units aren't surprised or out of supply or something (on top of starting at entrenchment 4). When you attack them the turn you DoW on Swizterland you get losses and don't score much damage, but if you wait for a turn then you can nail them easily. Why is that? Are you sure units start without supply on surprise/DoW turn? I think supply may be calculated the turn after that. Or maybe the Swiss are a special case having no city.

What do you mean about PBEM? That he reloads many times?

If the gambit fails and you don't get Brussels then Germans keep it at STR 10 instead of 8, but can they still increase Italy readiness by having units next to it or do you have to conquer Brussels (as Allies) before Italy readiness starts to increase? If the former then the gambit is as bad as you say.

At the end you're only depriving Germany of 300 plunder and losing a lot, I mainly like to use it against the AI because I can pretty much stall it in Poland and go all in with the Navies and invade Germany from France with an early HQ and later a French tank. I was merely fascinated with the London-Calai landing when I found out I could do that and keep 1 more unit on the Maginot line so the Germans couldn't break it on the next turn. I didn't know about Italy readiness then so I thought it was workable. If Italy is so easily coerced to join then this plan won't work against experienced players.

Still I'd like to try it together with an attempt to invade Italy as soon as it enters the war. Mass the Med fleets to destroy the Italians when they enter and land the Med Armies to seige Rome and cut off Italian army.

[Terif]

- Swiss has no cities and therefore has no supply in any turn

- If someone does a LC turn 1 gambit in PBEM, then you can be pretty sure he reloaded or at least intended to reload in case it would fail. Chances to fail are too high in comparison with the potential gain - in TCP only a foul or suicider will do it, in PBEM usually reloaders will do it

- If Allies fail to get LC, then italian readiness will still increase if Germany places a unit near Brussel and Maginot. Together with the delayed allied war entries the end for Allies is guaranteed.

- Against the AI or even against unexperienced/uncautious human players a LC gambit (turn 2) is perfect to kill them fast if you want to play this way, but not against a good axis player.

[komninosm]

So why do the Swiss give me those weird results for turn 1? I can't harm them the first turn, but if I just wait then I can kill them easy the next one. I think maybe Hubert gave them supply for only the first turn. It also means that their increased readiness is myltiplied with the mountain and entrenchment bonuses to prevent losses as well as score more in their defense against me.

About the LC in turn 1, they only need average rolls, 3 from the army near Paris and 2 from 2 other armies or the London Corps making it 7 total and you have UK AF and then French AF and then Bomber if you need it. I think that makes chances to fail pretty small, but I guess what you mean is that as small as they are, the potential loss is so great (pretty much the whole game) that the small danger is unacceptably high. And also the gain is rather dubious on top. Paris will fall later, but Italy will join sooner and USA and USSR later.

BTW, if I manage to place a unit on the River Hex near Brussels I usually end up with an opening in the Maginot line. Either the bottom one or the one above it. Now the AI doesn't fill it up because it doesn't leapfrog units very well and the river hex infront is allied, but I guess a Human player can take a fort and destroy it. My question is will that increase Italian readiness and how easy will it be for the Allies to kill that unit and fill the hole? If it's the middle Fort then you can attack it with the two French armies in the other forts (1 is a corp though) and you have to use whatever you bought the turn before and air power because all your troops are tied up in the LC defense. So I guess it's better to forget about the Brussel river hex instead. Right?