Favorite Historical Resources

[santabear]

There is a (short) discussion about some history books buried in the bowels of the "Military Leaders" thread. It occured to me that many (all) of us in here have our "favorite" sources on many aspects of the war (diplomatic, economic, military), and that it would be good to have a thread in which we could all list things we've found useful whether in print or on the web--and in all languages.

To keep this managable we could perhaps limit ourselves to two works each with the idea of citing "specialized" books rather than general histories that everyone probably knows about already.

We might be able to build up quite a bibliography in here for our "summer reading" lists.

A "golden oldie" (from the 80's I think) is titled "Why Nations Go to War" by John Stoessinger. It has quite a good analysis of several conflicts including the run-up to Barbarossa.

Jersey John: Could you do your cool "link-thing" to Konstantin's books in the "military leaders" thread? I can't seem to get it to work for me :mad:

[JerseyJohn]

santabear

Not certain which link you're looking for but this seems the closest. If it isn't let me know which one you'd like.

From a posting by Konststantin in the War Leaders Topic [ . . .]

"He was a political genius, not a military strategist or an economist. He knew how to manipulate things to get what he needed. Want a popular example, ok. Konev and Zhukov in the drive on berlin. Stalin drew the line separating the fronts on the map and stopped it short of berlin. He did this because he knew of the rivalry between the two and doing this would spur them on.

"As I said in the previous post, he was not a swell guy. However you discount the great service and he and they russian people did, and that was defeat nazi germany.

"But hey the second world war was won on the beaches of Normandy, wasn't it? Or at least thats what most people think.

"Oh here is a link to an article written by a definately anti-soviet person that deals with the above. The statisics mirror a lot of books:"

http://www.ww2n.com/archives/art-20010426.shtml

[ April 29, 2003, 12:51 PM: Message edited by: Konstatin V. Kotelnikov ]

[JerseyJohn]

SB -- Why Nations Go To War is an excellent choice.

My own two recommended books are:

Achtung-Panzer! by Heinz Guderian

-- and --

Lost Victories by Erich von Manstein.

Also recommended are:

Churchill's Grand Alliance

by John Charmley

and

The Kings Depart -- The Tragedy of Germany:Versailles and The German Revolution

by Richard M. Watt

Anyone deeply interested in the WW II period and how it came about should read Hitler's Mein Kampf instead of relying on paraphrasings and excerpts as this is one book that actually did change the world. The store clerk will probably glare at you; I glared back and made the purchase.

[ May 04, 2003, 11:03 AM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ]

[disorder]

the road to war 1914-1917 mills

war as i knew it patton

"sensationalized" reading (old decayed paperbacks)

i flew for the fuehrer

the dam busters

[Shaka of Carthage]

I got interested in WWII in a round about way, mainly from me trying to understand the "why" behind Vietnam. Thats another story, but just ask and I'll be happy to tell you.

So here is how the WWII bit started for me and it was kinda hard to limit myself to just two entries.

Numbers, Predictions, and War Trevor N. DuPuy, 1979.

How to Make War James F. Dunnigan, 1989

Specific to WWII in general I have to go with these:

The Collapse of the Third Republic 1969

The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich1960

Both are by William L. Shirer

(Sorry, but I can't help myself.) One thing you have to remember when reading books is not to take everything at face value. Some books have a bias, some are written from one point of view, and others just repeat (slightly differently) what other books have alread said. Nothing illustrates this more than the information being released by those who have access to the Russian archives. Excellent books are the ones that have access to the historical documents and are written without bias.

If you want to read one book about warfare though, go with:

How to Make War James F. Dunnigan, 2003 (Fourth Edition)

[Liam]

I have read quite a bit, usually Non-Fiction only. Not opinion, or theory...

It's quite obvious if you look at history to draw your own conclusions that the Germans were very Nationalistic and after they'd made a Country in the 1800s, established colonies, they wanted to be a World Power...

Say since 1500, Turkey-Spain-England-France-Germany<shortlived>-Russia/USA

[Shaka of Carthage]

Liam

Ok, I have a question for you.

Have you ever wondered why certain nations thrived and others did not?

Why did Europe as a region have so many kingdom/monarchies/empires/nations that ruled and other areas did not?

Maybe that was too broad based... lets go with Spain, which you used in your example. Why did the Empire of Spain fail? Especially since it was one of the first to have access to the New World?

[ May 04, 2003, 11:15 PM: Message edited by: Shaka of Carthage ]

[kenfedoroff]

Originally posted by Shaka of Carthage:

Ok, I have a question for you.

Have you ever wondered why certain nations thrived and others did not?

Somewhat off topic but:

"The Great Reckoning" by James Dale Davidson and Lord Rees Moog, studies the "cost of projecting power" and "the rise and fall of great nations".

(Forgot to add: I prefer original, first edition as opposed to updated release.)

Sincerely,

Ken

[ May 05, 2003, 06:19 PM: Message edited by: kenfedoroff ]

[JerseyJohn]

Regarding the Spanish Empire, it's always been my understanding that failure to industrialize was the main culprit. Running a close second was the stifling influence of the Catholic Church and it's psychotic inquisitors. Spain would have been better off if Ferdinand and Isabella had burned those sociopaths at the stake instead of allowing them free reign to ruin the country and crush all creative thought.

The direct consequence of non-industrialization was the necessity of paying exorbitant prices for finished goods, often bought from their industrialized enemies (principally England) through Itlaian and Low Country middlemen. At the height of it's New World gold and silver mining the Spanish Crown was heavily in debt to Italian and Dutch bankers.

kefedoroff Sounds like a terrific book, thanks for recommending it. I'll try to find a copy.

Shaka Two of my favorites. The Decline and Fall of the Third Republic is generally neglected and was never fully recognized as the classic it actually is.

[ May 05, 2003, 05:44 PM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ]

[kenfedoroff]

JerseyJohn and interested parties:

For what it's worth, I have had some luck with used books at alibris.com

http://www.alibris.com/search/search.cfm

Hope this helps,

Ken

[SeaWolf_48]

Very good idea for posting....

I'm going to pretend that none of you have ever read the books that I'm listing, all though I know that it's not true.

Of my book selection, I would have to list Winston Churchill's Six Book Master Piece Of WW2 number one, have read the set three times. Of the big three he was the only one to record WW2, and they are very well written. Must Read for young and old.

The set of World War 2 by Time Life Books is second on my list. Each book of which there are 39 do a great job of telling each theme. e.g. The Battle of the North Atlantic, great job of telling each side, with lots of statistics.

Next I like stories about Divisions in WW2. Hard to find but very rewarding. e.g. Night Drop Normandy by S.L.A. Marshal.

Lastly books about Generals and Leaders, Two volumn set about A. Hitler by Toland very well done. Panzer Leader about Guderian, and Knight,s Cross about Rommel, are top drawer, spot on, rude air!

On DVD World in Flames, number one, Victory at Sea Second. Lately several good war movies which don't distort history to badly have been produced, e.g. Band of Brothers, Saving Pvt Ryan, Pearl Harbor, and for the older group that can watch B&W, Battleground (whcih won an oscar), D-day, and A Bridge to far(color).

The US Army books of Maps from West Point are very good, Two book set. My dad bought them when I was young and they have always shaped my understanding of WW2. You can find them in used book store's for around $75, as you can for any books listed above. I've counted over two hundred History and Military books in my humble colection, halve are used, and are really the way to collect books, although I do belong to the Military Book Club.

I only list the above to give ideas to and to help younger future marshal loving eggheads, battle butt kicking nerdy history know-it-alls, no social life deprived buttheads, societal sick morbid strategy wargamers.

[JerseyJohn]

Mr. K,

Thanks for the link, will try it soon.

SeaWolf

In building a collection of the really good books in hardcover, quality secondhand is definitely the route to take. The West Point Army tomes are always a good choice, the maps alone are worth the price of the book. My favorite of those examines the battles of Napoleon.

Anything written by Winston Churchill is worth reading. I'll need to reread his Second World War collection as it's been to many years since I've read them. I remember enjoying them immensely in High School. The big regret with Sir Winston is he died before ENIGMA became declassified. He knew more about the secret information war than anyone else and it would have been interesting to see what he had to say about it. Eisenhower also knew a great deal about that and he also died before it was declassified.

Haven't read the Time-Life series but enjoyed looking through the volumes at our local library.

Guderian's second book, Panzer Leader is also a personal favorite. Limited to two choices I chose Achtung Panzer! (his first book) because it helped shape armored warfare.

Toland is also a top history author and his Hitler bio is another fine choice.

There are also numerous good books going back to the 1920s by the British General Fuller and numerous fine books by Lidell Hart.

Widening the topic, which I'm not attempting to do -- this would be for a different Thread -- it would be interesting to see what people think of Golden Oldies such as Clauswitz, the Chronicles of Julius Caesar and Tsun Tsu's Art of War -- before it became a business manual!

Glad Victory at Sea is on DVD. Watching that fifty years ago when it was a new weekly show is what got me interested in these things; great Richard Rogers musical score, great narration and great film clips. Originally it was intended as a morale booster in the early Cold War with the Korean -- ahem -- Police Action depressing everyone in the country.

The BBC series, World at War, is also available on DVD. It's a great thing to watch with it's dozens of terrific interviews of WW II figures such as Adolph Galland and Albert Speer and numerous others who have since moved on to a better existence.

[ May 05, 2003, 08:40 PM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ]

[SeaWolf_48]

To Jersey

As always I enjoy your responce, the Victory at Sea sound track is alway awesome, and their is real drama in the World in Flame stories, with the first 3/4 of series narrated by Sir L Olivier. Why he did not complete the last ones is a mystery, I would like to find out why he didn't finish them?

As I was writting the last posting I was thinking about Churchill and Enigma and how I wish he could have revealed it's importance, that's werd that you brought it up!

Please start the new topic of the pre-twentyth centry (pre-electric) history. I've got a lot to say about that era and their writers. Antiquity, dark ages, age of sail exploration, gun powder and colonial expansion, and Eighteenth and Nineteenth century military warfare.

[JerseyJohn]

SeaWolf

Will get that Topic started immediately.

I think we're talking about the same BBC series and giving it two different names. The title screen is filled with flames engulfing the images of people closing on a single boy's face which is consumed as the haunting theme music finishes. If so, it's the one in the box set below. If there's a different series as well I'd like to get that one too!

There are tracks where the producer explains various behind the scenes situations in the series and I'll see if he mentions Olivier's going AOL in the final episodes. Glad you mentioned it, I didn't notice his leaving when I saw the series on television in the 70s.

[SeaWolf_48]

To JJ

Yes, I meant "The World at War". All the brain cells have been written on once, and when you have to write over them again because there is no space left, they don't work as well. And my service in the Hippie Corps in the sixties didn't help.

[ May 06, 2003, 06:08 PM: Message edited by: SeaWolf_48 ]

[Urko]

Originally posted by JerseyJohn:

Regarding the Spanish Empire, it's always been my understanding that failure to industrialize was the main culprit. Running a close second was the stifling influence of the Catholic Church and it's psychotic inquisitors. Spain would have been better off if Ferdinand and Isabella had burned those sociopaths at the stake instead of allowing them free reign to ruin the country and crush all creative thought.

The direct consequence of non-industrialization was the necessity of paying exorbitant prices for finished goods, often bought from their industrialized enemies (principally England) through Itlaian and Low Country middlemen. At the height of it's New World gold and silver mining the Spanish Crown was heavily in debt to Italian and Dutch bankers.

kefedoroff Sounds like a terrific book, thanks for recommending it. I'll try to find a copy.

Shaka Two of my favorites. The Decline and Fall of the Third Republic is generally neglected and was never fully recognized as the classic it actually is.

It's a very sad history of 5 centuries

[JerseyJohn]

SeaWolf

Though not a member of the Hippie Corps I believed enthusiastically in their smoke-it drink-it philosophy and can say for a fact your description of it's after effects is extremely accurate. My last clear thought probably occurred sometime in 1972! Not having thought clearly since that time, I can't remember what it was.

Urko

That it is; I don't so much bemoan what Spain and Portugal might truly have developed into as much as the lasting effect their narrow ways had on so much of the World's population.

It seems inconceivable today that as late as the early ninteenth century Inquisitional zealots wanted to have Francisco Goya executed, with his works destroyed, on the grounds that his skills were being used to express Satanic visions.

I wonder how many forgotten geniuses they killed over the centuries and what their justification was. Jascha Heifitz is too good with a violin, he has to be in league with the Devil, kill him!

[ May 08, 2003, 02:24 PM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ]

[Urko]

Originally posted by JerseyJohn:

SeaWolf

Urko

That it is; I don't so much bemoan what Spain and Portugal might truly have developed into as much as the lasting effect their narrow ways had on so much of the World's population.

It seems inconceivable today that as late as the early ninteenth century Inquisitional zealots wanted to have Francisco Goya executed, with his works destroyed, on the grounds that his skills were being used to express Satanic visions.

I wonder how many forgotten geniuses they killed over the centuries and what their justification was. Jascha Heifitz is too good with a violin, he has to be in league with the Devil, kill him!

Mmm, during the XIX century they killed only a few people beacuse they needed to do that the pop says the were powerfull, but in that century the lion did'nt have much life...

Goya had that problem exactly because he went into politic.

But, You talk about XIX century while 28 years ago you could be 5 years easily in the prison if you said "I don't believe in god" or you weren't catholic in general...

[ May 07, 2003, 04:54 PM: Message edited by: Urko ]

[Desert Dave]

As originally posted by SeaWolf_48:

All the brain cells have been written on once, and when you have to write over them again because there is no space left, they don't work as well. And my service in the Hippie Corps in the sixties didn't help.

LOL! Mine don't work so fine neither!

ah me, T Leary, that merry old band, that

goofing & ghostly rambunctious - Hippie Clan!

... flowers stuck in rifled barrels,

flowers stuck in hang-loose hair,

flowers plucked from day-glo gardens,

flowers - wild flowers!

crazily waving - everywhere!

... but alas,

those flowers, no, they just can't last

whence tractors, or tanks, are smartly

amassed, or... Presto! transform!

the towering stacks of no-glo Lucre

a-glowering so dumb-ly

in high-shine banks... but,

they may and they might!

freshen the air! all

around... a grave-site, or a Prophet's

sorrowing stare O!

yea... even frame a fey face!

of a long lost lover, who,

at long, long last,

...still cares... :cool:

[JerseyJohn]

Urko

Agreed that the ninteenth century Catholic Church had lost most of the powers it should never have had in the first place. Napoleon was instrumental in starting that process.

Goya was an activist and no doubt he did use his stature to deliberately antagonize church officials but that was part of the tearing down process.

Didn't realize the Church in Spain was still so powerful that recently. You know much more about this side of things than I do.

Raised as a Catholic in the United States I first became disgusted with the church -- though not necessarily the religion -- when they started telling parishiners what movies they should and shouldn't see and that it was their obligation to have as many children as possible. Considered how the U. S. is supposed to have a clear division of church and State, these are things no church should be trying to force on it's members.

I remember when I was even younger that many Americans who liked John Kennedy wouldn't vote for him because he was Catholic. I didn't understand it at the time, but it was the same reason they hadn't voted for Al Smith years earlier; they were afraid a Catholic president would accept dictates from the Vatican.

The reference in this discussion was Spain and Catholocism, but I didn't mean to single out a single country as Ireland, Poland, Portugal and Italy were all affected in similar ways by too much control by the church. Nor did I want to dwell on the Catholic faith because any religion, when it becomes governmentalized, tends to have a negative effect. Examples would be state run Budhism in pre-WW II Japan and state run Mohamadism in modern day Iran. Religion combined with civil government tends to have a stilting influence and often, as a tool of either the ruling elite or of church officials, becomes oppressive.

Immer Good to see you again.

[ May 08, 2003, 02:25 PM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ]

[Urko]

Originally posted by JerseyJohn:

Urko

I'm here teacheeeeeeeeer!

What were you going to tell me?

[ May 08, 2003, 01:57 PM: Message edited by: Urko ]

[JerseyJohn]

We're both students -- the urge just struck me to call your name out! Actually, I hit the add reply button by accident before writing the posting.

[Urko]

Originally posted by JerseyJohn:

Urko

Didn't realize the Church in Spain was still so powerful that recently. You know much more about this side of things than I do.

That was 28 years ago, not now, I'll write the recent history of the church in Spain...

1492 - 1930 The catholic church is joined to the state

1930 - 1936 With the republic there is a separation between it and the state and with the socialist government (not the same as the American socialism, here there is another concept of socialism) there's a neutrality

July 1936 - 1938 Coup d'État, Spain, divided into republicans and fascists, the church helped the fascists and It was well known so in 1936, in the republic zone the churchs, monasteries... were sacked, burnt and many clercks were killed in some cities, the republic fights versus the church

while the fascists advanced...

1938 - 1939 May The republic signs the peace with the church (Negrin, a republican politic did it) but they lost the civil war, the fascist ultra-religious in the power

1951?- 1975, 20 November I don't remember the exact beginning date. Officialy, the State and the church were joined, that means that all the town-hall edicts, national laws... had to be signed for the church or weren't acceppted by Franco and there was a not official powerfull inquisition...

1975 - 1978 Transition, constitution, more freedom and a "democratic system"...

[JerseyJohn]

Urko

Thanks for the great summary, it makes a lot more sense to me now. I noticed Franco was always referred to as being a very devout Catholic but I didn't realize it extended to linking church and state. Knew the church was targeted during the late thirties Civil War but didn't realize it was deliberate on the part of the Republicans.

Sounds like by far the best course for Spain would have been a consistant rule by the Republic with Franco either being defeated or having never attempted the coups in the first place -- which he probably wouldn't have done without German air transports and Italian weapons / volunteers. Franco sounds like he was a giant step backwards for the Spanish people.

Once again, very glad you posted that account.

[ May 08, 2003, 02:59 PM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ]

[Urko]

Originally posted by JerseyJohn:

Urko

Sounds like by far the best course for Spain would have been a consistant rule by the Republic with Franco either being defeated or having never attempted the coups in the first place -- which he probably wouldn't have done without German air transports and Italian weapons / volunteers. Franco sounds like he was a giant step backwards for the Spanish people.

Once again, very glad you posted that account.

I'm bored in order to I'm going to tell more about the international situation of the republic and Franco during the civil war and their influence in the war:

Republic:

Countries who aid: U.R.S.S. and stop counting, the U.K. and France abandoned it in front of the Republic annoyment because they were afraid about Germany (U.S. was too far and ancestral enemy before the republic to be considerated a traitor). The U.R.S.S. helped sending a few gums and selling a little of munitions...

Volunteers: the International Brigades came here in 1937 and were coragerous soldiers from different countries (France, the most, a many from the U.K. and U.S. and a bit from many other countries. The returnt home in 1938, when the war was lost.

Official help: Nothing

Franco:

Countries who aid: Germany, Italy, Ireland, Romania, South-American countries... the list is too long

Volunteers: From many countries, but especially from Italy, but in the Italian-volunteer front when the saw the first enemy gums, they began to run in a proportion of 1/10 soldiers positive for Italians and was a red day for them...

Official help: Germany (Pilots, munition...) and Italy

[ May 08, 2003, 03:25 PM: Message edited by: Urko ]