Where the heck is Tankograd?

[SeaWolf_48]

I reading history about the Eastern Front, one has to be impressed with the gigantic effort and cost that Russia did by moving their heavy industry from the Donnets Basin (their Ruhr) to the Urals. In the city Tankograd they out-producded even the US in main-battle tanks.

In our beloved game, SC, once the Germans conquer a city the Russians blow it up, Boom! But in actual fact, they moved their machines, bricks, conduits, wires, and pipes to the Urals, and then rebuilt the Plant again. As a Russian player you lose the presious MPP's, instead for regaining them a few months later. Let's face it this game is controled by MPP's!

Germany had to win the war in 1942, latest summer of '43. After that she had no chance to win. Germany bit off more than she could chew, when she was fighting, the US, UK, and USSR. I feel that the games should reproduce this fact. Now the game goes on and on, even to 1947. This would have been impossible if Russia or England was still a combatant in 1944 or later.

NOT to mention the MPP's for the US at the end of the game should be 500 MPP's or more each turn.

Respond!

[Hueristic]

Originally posted by SeaWolf_48:

Germany bit off more than she could chew, when she was fighting, the US, UK, and USSR. I feel that the games should reproduce this fact. Now the game goes on and on, even to 1947. This would have been impossible if Russia or England was still a combatant in 1944 or later.

NOT to mention the MPP's for the US at the end of the game should be 500 MPP's or more each turn.

Respond!

I agree it was simple math.

[Kuniworth]

I agree the axis should be toast after 1943. However its my strongest belief that when the axis couldnt conquer Russia before the winter - the war in the east was lost.

[kenfedoroff]

Originally posted by SeaWolf_48:

In our beloved game, SC, once the Germans conquer a city the Russians blow it up, Boom! But in actual fact, they moved their machines, bricks, conduits, wires, and pipes to the Urals, and then rebuilt the Plant again. As a Russian player you lose the precious MPP's, instead for regaining them a few months later...........

Sounds good to me. I could buy more corps to throw underneath the tracks of the Panzers.

Sincerely,

Corporal Cannon Fodder

[Konstantin V. Kotelnikov]

There is a great book out, I can't remember the title, it was something like War in the East, or like that.

It discussed Germany and her capacity to launch large offensives by entire army groups and sustain them. It discussed basically how germanys offensive power slowly dwindled from the start of barbarossa to the point where it was even difficult for her to mount limited offensives.

Basically blaming the lack of germany to mobilize it's industry. Inside Hitler's Germany discusses that in depth, on how countries like the USSR, USA and Great Britian used women in the workforce to produce armaments. Germany used a few but not on the scale of those countries, and of course they used slave labour which is a bad idea.

I would love to see the ability to move Russian industry to the Urals in SC2. It was a key part to the USSR defeating Germany.

That's one thing I love about WIR. You can get those factories out of there before the germans take the town.

It would be a very nice enhancement to the game. Because when you get to a certain point, it becomes impossible for the USSR to survive without those factories in the Urals and of course there is no lend lease in the game.

Later!

[ January 15, 2003, 12:50 PM: Message edited by: Konstatin V. Kotelnikov ]

[Kuniworth]

Everyone here should read my thread "Russian OOB and unit size"

[SeaWolf_48]

Kuniworth

I did read it and you are right about to few russian units!

[Logan Hartke]

In the city Tankograd they out-producded even the US in main-battle tanks.

Not really. The US produced almost as many tanks as the Russians in a much shorter period of time. If you look at the US's peak tank production and Russia's peak tank production, America wins out.

Logan Hartke

[Compassion]

Originally posted by SeaWolf_48:

Germany had to win the war in 1942, latest summer of '43. After that she had no chance to win. Germany bit off more than she could chew, when she was fighting, the US, UK, and USSR

Ahh... a perfect place to bring out my old warhorse. The problem with this in SC (well, one of them, the production potential of the US not being shown is another) is that manpower levels are not reflected. As long as you got points, you can build armies... or 12 airforces or something as farcical. Without a determination of the max manpower levels in the game, you cannot reproduce the urgency of a low blood war for the Germans... or the tradeoff between the number of troops you can field vs. the number of factories you have operating.

[Les the Sarge 9-1b]

Tankograd, sure sounds like a nickname and not a place name eh.

Remember we are talking about Russia, I am not even sure the word tank is used in the Russian language.

[Kuniworth]

Originally posted by Compassion:

Yep Ive discussed this a lot before. Clash of steel works better than SC in this area, although limiting units is not a good way to go.

All in all there a lot that has to be done in SC 2: What I hate with SC are all those gamey tactics, unreal OOB and other totally unrealistic things. Easy stuff to correct but unfortunately not adressed by the programmer. SC got a terrific AI and great userinterface, however sometimes Im wonderin if its ww2 we are playin...

[Kuniworth]

Konstantin what is your nick at the matrix forums?

[Konstantin V. Kotelnikov]

Originally posted by Les the Sarge 9-1b:

Remember we are talking about Russia, I am not even sure the word tank is used in the Russian language.

The russian word for tank is "tahk".

I don't have cyrillic font on my computer here otherwise i'd post it.

Kuni: I don't visit the matrix. I gather that is a Forum? Is it a gaming forum? History?

[Les the Sarge 9-1b]

Matrix games, not the center of the universe of course, but the General Forum is actually more wargame than is the case for most site's "General Forum" usually.

We have Art of War if you want to take the gloves off in your post.

The oldest Forum section is likely the Steel Panthers WaW forum though.

Matrix is to Steel Panthers as Battlefront is to Combat Mission.

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/

It's worth a look guys.

[Compassion]

Originally posted by Les the Sarge 9-1b:

Tankograd, sure sounds like a nickname and not a place name eh.

Remember we are talking about Russia, I am not even sure the word tank is used in the Russian language.

IT's a place... They got the word 'tank' from the US who got it from the Brits/French... The name stuck with the early pioneers in the west, I guess. US armor designers such as Christy deeply influenced Russian tank design and noemenclature for a time.... long enough for the nick to become official.

So yeah, anyway, the city was officially Tankograd during the war, but its real name (Remember this is the USSR where changing the names of cities seems to have been a sport at one time) is Chelyabinsk... IT was changed back afterward.

[ January 15, 2003, 07:53 PM: Message edited by: Compassion ]

[Compassion]

Originally posted by Kuniworth:

Yep Ive discussed this a lot before. Clash of steel works better than SC in this area, although limiting units is not a good way to go.

NO, it's not... but limiting game to the total "service age" population and forcing a balance between mfg and combat units in one way or another would be a good addition.

[Kuniworth]

Originally posted by Konstatin V. Kotelnikov:

Yep Matrix has released Grigsby's old classic "War in russia" adressing a lot of bugs and stuff in their versions. Wir got an own forum there...

[JerseyJohn]

SeaWolf --

Great topic, glad you got it going.

Interesting thread all the way through. I don't think the game should be shortened but from 1944 onwards it should become more dificult for Germany to sustain it's war effort primarily due to the strain on it's manpower.

I think the answer is to have units become proportionately more costly after a given base level. Let's say Germany, for example, begins paying an increasing % per unit starting with, say, the eighth Luftflotte, twentieth army, and tenth tank group. Corps and naval units would be calibrated seperately but along similar lines. Deciding upon the initial formula might be difficult but the actual insertion of calculation tables ought to be fairly easy.

Naturally all the major countries should have similar effects. England actually peaked out in terms of manpower by 1944, as did several other Common Wealth nations. By 1945 Russia was also running short of manpower and in the U. S. women were doing most of the factory jobs. Presumably the only two areas on earth -- and I don't mean this in a joking manner -- where manpower shortages were not a factor, would have been India and China.

[ January 15, 2003, 07:33 PM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ]

[Archibald]

"Tankograd" was the nickname given to Chelyabinsk. It doesn't look like a fun place to live.

Some excellent points made here about the relocation of Soviet war industries to the East. While only a fraction of Soviet industry escaped the German advance, that fraction comprised vital industries.

In the semi final Christmas Tournament game I played a very historical game as the Allies against Irish Guards. The situation at the beginning of 1942 was very similar to reality, with the Germans stopped in front of Moscow on a line running from Leningrad to Rostov. I formed a two deep line in front of the recuperating Germans, but sensed rightly that I was stuffed.

I'd lost the resource hexes in the Ukraine, Byelorussia and the Baltic States and without new factories coming on line in 1942 the Germans would simply outproduce me and roll over me. This is exactly what Irish Guards did.

I can't remember for certain, but I think Russian Campaign and Russian Front both featured the evacuation and rebuilding of war industries. Including this in SC2 would give the Soviet economy it's historical ability to recover.

With the ability to evacuate industrial hexes in the face of the advancing Germans, the Soviets would be required to balance the immediate economic benefit of receiving MMPS against the long term possibility of losing them altogether if they leave it for too long or are cut off from the rest of the Soviet Union. Once evacuated, the industrial resource would reappear on the edge of the map at resource level 0, and only increase by one per turn.

This would place the onus on the Germans of maintaining the impetus of their advance or face running into supply problems deep within Russia as the bear begins to regain strength.

With the capacity to evacuate and rebuild, the Soviets would have a reasonable chance of surviving if they lose what they did historically in 1941. At the moment the Germans simply have to achieve what they did historically to probably win the game.

[ January 16, 2003, 06:33 AM: Message edited by: Archibald ]

[Les the Sarge 9-1b]

Russian Front (one of my fav board games for this aspect of WW2), does indeed reproduce the need to relocate valuable factories.

They are actual counters, and require specific effort to move them with the games rail movement allottment per turn.

It is not at all easy to give up the rail movement per turn allottment, and is not done casually. But if the Germans take the hex, and destroy them, they contribute to the victory award total.

Therefore shouldering the loss is not an option, it could cost the Russians the game.

This though, is like a lot of distinct historical actions, which is hard to recreate in a game, that can swerve so far from the events of history.

The Russians did indeed move those factories. Could anyone else have done it? Could Germany up and move the Ruhr industries?.

I think the ability to move industries, should be made possible for SC2, but it should be a massive effort, and it should be possible for any ower to do it as well.

Otherwise, you have just decided to impose on the games ability to not be forced into just recreating the real events of the war ie the Germans should be required to endure a nasty Russian Winter the turn they attack, simply because they did in the real thing.

[Archibald]

It's gratifying to see you defending the game as it stands. We seem to have finally converted you!

[jon_j_rambo]

Archie --- You ready to play?

[paullus]

The Soviet removal of factories to the East is, for the most part, a myth & propoganda. Some factories were moved, but the Soviets found that the amount of time necessary to get those factories up and running was far longer than it would have been to build them from scratch.

When Stalin began his program of rearmament in the late 1920's & 30's, a majority of the new factories were built east of Moscow, out of range of potential enemy states (Poland, Germany, etc). It was these existing factories that contributed the majority of fighting arms to the Red Army during the war.

Lend-lease also allowed Soviet industry to concentrate on the war-winning weapons at the expense of all else (building only tanks, artillery, SPGs, & aircraft, not to mention personnel weapons such as MGs & rifles). Uniforms, food, supplies, and transport were provided by the Allies. The entire production run of the Studebaker Truck Company was sent to the Soviet Union, providing over 8000 trucks per month. Outside of the armed forces, the general Soviet population was ill-fed, ill-clothed, and virtually bereft of any modern conveniences or luxuries.

By concentrating only on what was necessary to win, the Soviet Union was able to out-produce the Germans (and throw a lot more bodies in front of them). Only a very mobile & adept defense (after the debacles at Stalingrad and the Caucausus) could have prevented was happened historically - something Hitler would have never approved of.

[Konstantin V. Kotelnikov]

Originally posted by paullus:

The Soviet removal of factories to the East is, for the most part, a myth & propoganda. Some factories were moved, but the Soviets found that the amount of time necessary to get those factories up and running was far longer than it would have been to build them from scratch.

I'm sorry but I completely disagree. What is your source(s) for this statement or is this just opinion?

[SeaWolf_48]

Hay Paullus, your statement sound very pompus! This is a fun forum, we don't always get our facts perfect but we all respect eachother for putting their necks out on the line and having some fun dialoging on this forum!

So please don't go postal on us!