Aztecace Posted July 3, 2004 Share Posted July 3, 2004 Here is the situation in a PBEM game that I am in. I am Allies and it is May 12 1940. Germany has taken Poland, Denmark, and the LC. He has 700 mpp's in the bank and it appears that he has bought 3 Air Fleets, 1 Tank, and at least 2 Techs since he has level 2 tanks and level one jets. Can the germans get enough Mpps to buy all of these units so early in the game not withstanding any mpps that he has used for reinforcing and operating units(I know for a fact he reinforced a army from 1 to 10)? I just feel that something is not right about this. I have tried to do the math and I cannot come up with the needed MPPS. Thanks [ July 03, 2004, 09:41 PM: Message edited by: Aztecace ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Comrade Trapp Posted July 3, 2004 Share Posted July 3, 2004 Germany has taken Poland, Netherlands, and the LC.The Netherlands are included in the Low Countries, did you mean to put something else there? Regardless, level 2 tanks and level 1 jets by May 12, 1940? You have every reason to be suspicious. Has he disbanded any units that you can tell of? I'll let someone else who is a little more experienced with this type of thing comment, but like I said, you have every reason to be suspicious. Comrade Trapp Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aztecace Posted July 3, 2004 Author Share Posted July 3, 2004 I am sorry I meant to say Poland, Denmark, and the Low Countries. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liam Posted July 3, 2004 Share Posted July 3, 2004 Aztec, he can. It's already May, He could have... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aztecace Posted July 3, 2004 Author Share Posted July 3, 2004 Well if you say he can do it. He can do it. I just need to learn how he did it then! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curry Posted July 3, 2004 Share Posted July 3, 2004 WOW that is very suspicious. Normally players dont invest in tech until after France falls for the Axis. At least that is how I play it. That a person would get those techs before France falls I seriously doubt it. If it was me I would just give up and never play that player again because its just too suspicious for me. Is it possible, yes, likely, NO. I have a hard time believing it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terif Posted July 3, 2004 Share Posted July 3, 2004 Hmm...lets do the math: May 12, 1940 means Germany collected 8 times mpps + startmpps. That is at approximately: Germany: 9 x 120 = 1080mpp + Poland/LC/Denmark: ~5 x 50 mpp = 250 mpp (depends on when they got conquered, so can be a bit more or less mpps...) + Plunder for 3 countries: maximum is 3 x 350 = 1050 (minimum is 750) Everything together Germany can have collected 1080 + 250 + 1050 = 2380 mpp (more or less - but lets say Germany got really lucky, so it will be close to maximum...). vs 3 AFs + 1 tank + 2 tech chits + bank: 1200 + 325 + 500 + 700 = 2725 (+ operating/reinforcing) This doesnt fit together... So first question is: Are you sure you have counted everything correct (e.g. has he really 6 AFs ? Germany already starts with 3 AFs. You can check the actual number in the report screen) and is it the 1939 Fall Weiss scenario (perhaps wrong/different scenario started ?) ? If yes, then you really should be more than suspicious...some tech advances could be with 1 chit each (very unlikely but not impossible (in case someone is so crazy to invest in tech during France... )) but alone from mpps it can not be if you counted correct. So my advice: ask your opponent for an explaination and to give you his password for this game after the game is finished (in case he insists that everything is correct...) - so you can check the values (hopefully you kept your previous mails/turns, then it is no problem to check the settings and the following turns) and you will see definitely if it was possible or not and can take appropriate messures (if he refuses explaination/password you also know what to do...(see Curry´s post ). [ July 03, 2004, 03:20 PM: Message edited by: Terif ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aztecace Posted July 3, 2004 Author Share Posted July 3, 2004 Well thats what I thought about the math not being right. I double checked his last turn that he sent me twice. And yes I know he had 6 airfleets because they all attacked me on that turn. I asked him how he did it and he said he had disbanded his "useless units" (what ever that is)and that he never operated his units....hummm. Now that I think about it he had beaten me badly our last game with a super strong British airfleet....I am talking lots of high tech bombers and airfleets before the russian invasion. I had asked him how he did it that time too and he gave me the same answer.....disbanding "useless units" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curry Posted July 3, 2004 Share Posted July 3, 2004 Aztecace who is it? Is it in the pbem league? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curry Posted July 3, 2004 Share Posted July 3, 2004 Terif, quick question. Do you ever invest in Tech before France falls? That in itself seems very strange to me. But perhaps some players may do that. I could actually see putting one chit in Jets as Germany although I wouldnt do it nor think it would be wise at that point in the game. That I would not see at least as suspicious. But to place tech in tanks is just not wise at that stage of the game and to get such tech would be so super lucky. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kuniworth Posted July 4, 2004 Share Posted July 4, 2004 Aztecase; There are EXTREMELY few useless units for axis in the early war. Disbanding units is very cost ineffective and nothing Germany could or should do early. I think you should post the name of this guy as he is a cheater. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Comrade Trapp Posted July 4, 2004 Share Posted July 4, 2004 Do you ever invest in Tech before France falls? That in itself seems very strange to me. But perhaps some players may do that. I could actually see putting one chit in Jets as Germany although I wouldnt do it nor think it would be wise at that point in the game. That I would not see at least as suspicious. But to place tech in tanks is just not wise at that stage of the game and to get such tech would be so super lucky. Personally, I sometimes put a chit towards jets if the campaign against France is going extremely well, which is rare. And once or twice I got lucky and got Jets +1. But Tanks +2 and Jets +1, plus 3 airfleets and a tank unit, all by May 1940? Yeah right.... If he is cheating, he isn't even good at that. Terif, maybe you should get Aztecace to send you the pbem file so you can check it out for yourself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terif Posted July 4, 2004 Share Posted July 4, 2004 @Curry: No, I never invest in tech as Axis before the fall of France. It slows down the fall enourmously and even if you are lucky this doesnt even out the disadvantage. But I have seen some players doing it - usually new players in their first games vs human players until they learned this is not a good idea . Experienced players perhaps invest in tech when they see they will break through in France, but even then only in rare cases (see Comrade Trapp´s post)... @Aztecace: The others are right. At that time investing in tech is not wise and costly. At the start there are no "useless" german units. Perhaps he has disbanded his ships, but this brings only ~ 130 mpp. You can check the report screen for the number of his land units. Germany starts with 15 of them - maybe he is crazy and disbanded his corps/armies... (then he should have much less units now) but I dont think so... Sometimes it can be that someone starts by mistake the wrong scenario. But if Germany starts with additional mpp/research points he should have noticed it very soon and told it to you - here he says that everything is correct. According to your description this can not be true. If you want you can send me the PBEM file(s) (+ password) and I will check it for you. My e-mail is in my profile. [ July 04, 2004, 05:02 AM: Message edited by: Terif ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Patrick Posted July 4, 2004 Share Posted July 4, 2004 Okay, my question is _how_ would the guy be cheating? I'm not questioning he is...but just the mechanics of it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kossuth Posted July 4, 2004 Share Posted July 4, 2004 one way is to edit the scenario before play. ie giving him more tech from the start and/or more units. I also agrees with the previous spokers. There is no room whatsoever to sell off any land units as axis in the fall weiss campaign. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aztecace Posted July 4, 2004 Author Share Posted July 4, 2004 Just to check, I ran a ship up to the baltic and found his two german cruisers. So he didn't sell them off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terif Posted July 4, 2004 Share Posted July 4, 2004 Hmm...If he is in the PBEM League I would propose you send Curry (League administrator)the PBEM turn (+ password) and the name of your opponent so Curry can verify it and remove him from the league (after a last chance to prove that he is innocent). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terif Posted July 4, 2004 Share Posted July 4, 2004 I just checked the PBEM turn: It is May 12, 1940. Germany in fact has 6 AFs, 3 tanks, >700mpp on the bank reinforced alone in this turn 13 army strength points and researched jets + heavy tank. It has 16 ground units so it didnt disband any of them. It has 4 ships (2 subs lost)i.e. he even bought another one (or transport). This is impossible in the Fall Weiss scenario without additional mpp/research chits. Mistakes can happen (e.g. wrong scenario started), but if he claims everything was correct then he cheated. When someone obviously (and here it even seems repetedly) cheats, this is the best reason to remove him from any league. [ July 04, 2004, 05:58 PM: Message edited by: Terif ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jon_j_rambo Posted July 5, 2004 Share Posted July 5, 2004 Yoda in 'Da House, brings the coverage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kuniworth Posted July 5, 2004 Share Posted July 5, 2004 Interesting is; Who started and hosted the game. If it was you Aztecace then we have a MMP-hack to deal with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curry Posted July 5, 2004 Share Posted July 5, 2004 Aztec, if this is a sc pbem league you should announce the player. You should warn him in an email and then announce the player here in this post. We can kick him out of the league if he is a league player. We would of course give him a chance to defend or explain himself. As Terif said sometimes there is real reasons like starting the wrong file. But this does not seem to be that case and I would like to hear his explaination if he has one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aztecace Posted July 5, 2004 Author Share Posted July 5, 2004 Originally posted by Kuniworth: Interesting is; Who started and hosted the game. If it was you Aztecace then we have a MMP-hack to deal with. I was Allies so he started the game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kuniworth Posted July 5, 2004 Share Posted July 5, 2004 Aztecace; Reveil the name of the player please. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Comrade Trapp Posted July 5, 2004 Share Posted July 5, 2004 Originally posted by Kuniworth: Aztecace; Reveil the name of the player please. Yes, please do. And was this a SC PBEM league game? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terif Posted July 5, 2004 Share Posted July 5, 2004 Since Axis hosted, my guess is Germany simply started with 10 research points - this is here pretty much exactly the difference to a normal game and would also explain the fast research advances. But I agree with Curry that he should first have a chance for self defence and an explaination before we start hanging him - until now we have only heared one side . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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