The MPP war – turkish option for axis player

[hellraiser]

Well, I am not an experienced SC-er – I have played only several games vs human opponents but after reviewing what’s written in this forum about different strategy options for playing axis, I understood that the majority of the players play the same way, more or less. Either the game was explored so in-depth and its limits were reached or maybe there are some other options that need discussion – options that were not considered feasible since we have the ‘cookie cutter’ strategy

Most of the players seem to rule out the Turkish option for axis player. Why? Because ussr readiness jumps a lot and you will have a very early war with Russia and axis player prefer to keep Russia out of the game for as long as possible. This is true if the axis player previously played a standard game and DOW-ed a lot of neutrals.

My idea is to avoid DoW-ing a lot of countries. And I mean A LOT. You will not dow Norway, Sweden, Spain, Portugal or Vichy france – at least not until you are at war with Russia and USA is preparing for war. You only DOW Denmark and maybe the LC - say maybe because hopefully the allied player will dow LC

The game play I envisage is focused to gain the upper hand in MPPS – not by conquest of neutrals but by stripping the Allies of a large part of their MPPs.

The obvious drawback is lack of plunders and additional MPPs these neutral countries add up to axis income early on. But the problem is: does Axis player need those early mpps so much? In the short run yes…maybe In the long run it is debatable.

My idea - of course it is not mine, others had it before me – is to DOW Turkey and attack USSR through Caucasus. If troops are placed properly, USSR can lose all its Caucasus cities and resources in 2-3 turns (including Stavropol). This will make USSR gain only 290 MPPs per turn. (I will explain how one can do this later).

Back to DoW stuff. Not DoW- ing those neutrals will keep US and USSR readiness very low – any allied dows will further keep US out for more turns.

Phase 1: You get Poland, Denmark LC and France. (Hopefully the allies try a dutch gambit which is the best thing for axis in this situation).

Phase 2: Conquest of North Africa – UK cannot keep Egypt no matter what. If they commit too many forces they will lose them not to mention the risk of a SeaLion.

Phase 3: Conquest of Turkey via amphibious landings – USSR war readiness will jump to around 75 or a little bit more – and will stay that way for a long time. (You will have an early war with USSR as beginning with 22nd of June 41 ussr readiness is going up.)

Phase 4: Preparation for the invasion of USSR – major assets are airfleets – at least 7 stationed in turkey (lvl 2 jets and LR 1 are attainable by this time even with fewer axis MPPs); 3 or 4 tanks ready to encircle the first Russian city near Turkish border. Two corps or whatever ready to disembark and occupy the two mines below Rostov;

Phase 5: DOW USSR

First turn: Airfleets bomb Stavropol and the other Russian city in the Caucasus (not the one near Turkish border) out of order – lets say strength 3 – so USSR cannot buy or operate troops there. German tanks on Russian – Turkish border move forward and attack and encircle the garrisoned city near the border so USSR cannot operate troops there.

Note: some 2 or 3 italian strategic bombers may be purchased in order to assure that those cities are bombed properly – you can scrap the bombers later if u like.

Second turn: Russia buys, invests in tech, whatever – even if they buy a powerful army near Rostov they can only attack Stavropol in turn 3 and it is unlikely that they can recapture Stavropol anyway (you will have 2 troops there). Some german air keep the 2 cities below 4 – the others either move forward to cover Stavropol skies or assist a DOW on Iraq. (in this case have a corps prepared in turkey to get the border hex between Russia and Iraq) – Dowing Iraq can be postponed in order to keep US readiness down for more turns (US readiness is already on the rise). The 2 corps landed on the 2 mines secure Stavropol; German tanks move north towards the other Russian city as well as capture the border city.

The European USSR border can be defended easily by Axis (armies and corps or only corps; maybe 1-2 tanks) – Axis can even mount some attacks aimed at destruction of some soviet border armies – Russia is not able to mount a decisive attack unless they have some tech which at first they don’t have.

With Caucasus secured, germans have one big priority – raise the city levels to 5 so they can reinforce them and strengthen the front there – until then, fend off any Russian counter attack using mainly airpower and prevent those nasty partisans from appearing over there – cheap Italian corps can be transferred for this purpose in turkey on turn 2. Also fresh corps can be disembarked near Stavropol – the Russian cruiser there is a joke, really

Note that USA is still some good turns away from joining (probably they will join during 1942 or so) and UK still limited to those few MPPs they get from their main island, malta and gibraltar. MPPs will start to flow in Axis’ coffers and by the time USA joins, Germany is rich

USSR will barely be able to replenish losses with 290 mpps/turn and will need a long time to tech up in order to threat Axis in any manner.

At the moment the axis military power is weaker than usual (other games) in numbers but Axis do not need so many troops in this stage. They need to keep the European fronline compact and hit Caucasus – any attempts by UK to get its nose on European mainland can be easily repelled. USA will join very late and by then, Axis should be extremely strong. Italy can be used for buying bombers and assist the ussr southern invasion or buy ships to whack UK and US at sea. UK carriers won’t have many places to train - no Bergen, sorry only Ireland and, less probable, Brest.

By denying USSR a lot of MPPs, confine England on his isle and keeping US readiness down for a lot of turns, Germans win the MPP war and have time to build a powerful army that will most probably be able to win the war.

Flaws:

The big flaw I see at this moment is an Allied DOW on Spain which would make romania and hungary not join axis thus Axis gets a terrible mpp blow. - this is a little far fetched as Romanians and Hungarians didn’t bother about Franco and the gang

In this case it is very difficult to carry on – Hungary and Romania (or at least Romania) must be attacked as well – As I remember dowing romania makes ussr very angry ...

But this option is not tested by me so far (it might work, who knows?)

Do any of you think that this Turkish option as explained above is feasible versus a human player?

[ September 23, 2004, 12:47 PM: Message edited by: cosmin ]

[Sombra]

Hi hellraiser. I think you will run in serious trouble with your stratgy. First of all.

1. When the Allies DOW LC. You will have quite ahard time reaching Paris. That Italy will join early on is not secured.

2. Germany will miss hi income base and won´t be in the west in the defensive => not easy to conquer these country later on.

3. Not conquering sweden Norway etc. will get you a Net loss of 150 MP ++ each round hard to catch up. Rusia enters In July => usally september => more MPS for Rusia

4. Risk to get stuck in Egypt

5. Risk to get stuck in Turkey

6. Allies can conquer Norway etc. to increase their income base and reinforce the UDSSR via the north.

[Kuniworth]

Sombra is right. Remember the first rule of SC; SC is ALL ABOUT MMP.

[hellraiser]

in turkey u can't get stuck i think

as for egypt...it may be a little more difficult if uk defends it at all cost

maybe we can play it to see how it develops

[Terif]

Hmm...when I think about it, I would say the turkish option is risky, but feasible - not in all cases and not as standard strategy, but if you have the right opportunity and your opponent is not prepared it could work .

BTW: I am just using a variant of it in a HvsH game .

In deed if it works, then Axis will have an income of ~550 mpps before Barbarossa (+the conquered russian ressources (+95 mpps = ~650mpps) some turns later) while Allies get only 426 mpps/turn (136 UK, 290 Russia). If you improve it and landings in Russia are allowed, then you can also conquer Sevastopol and the 2 mines north of it (you have to destroy the russian tank in the south)= another 50 mpps less for Russia.

Main problem I see is to conquer Turkey since you have no city and no airsupport and you have to land amphibiously. Turkey has 6 units for defence and can entrench them in the mountains around the capital - will be hard to kill them all. Only if you are lucky and Romania + Bulgaria join early, you can attack via land.

There are several other risks (like Sombra already mentioned) especially when Allies know you will go for Turkey. If they know it, then they can e.g. defend the Med, attack Skandinavia and/or attack in the western Med. Not to forget Axis has not much income, so it can be difficult to afford all necessary units - especially when Allies play aggressively.

Allies dowing Spain is no problem as you thought: They have to do it early before the minors start joining, so you will get the spanish mpps for sure and earlier than your minors mpps (from the units its nearly the same). Axis will get Gibraltar too, which is a huge advantage here since then Allies can´t attack in the Med any more and Axis save a lot of units they would have needed to protect the mediteranean coasts against invasions. Since your minors will not join but you need a land connection into Turkey, it is useful to conquer Greece. This increases the chance of a yugoslavian coup from 10 to 25%/turn, i.e. if you are not totally unlucky you will have your land connection in time. Spain + Gibraltar + Greece + Yugo give Axis 118 mpps instead of 120 mpps from the normal minors. Usually the main advantage of an allied Dow on Spain is a bad Axis starting position for the first turn of Barbarossa, but here they are in the defence anyway, so it is even a disadvantage since Axis now have a shorter frontline to defend (and when Russia attacks Romania, it delays USA again some turns + there is a good defence line for Axis behind the river in Yugoslavia if necessary).

In case Allies do the LC gambit and you get France not too late (that´s the usual risk of a LC gambit ), then it is perfect for the turkish option: usually when Allies can hold France longer, then each turn costs Axis around 300 mpps/turn due to conquests they can´t do (Skandinavia 112, Vichy 34+5, Egypt (15x2)) and Italy (115) joining later. But when going for Turkey Axis don´t conquer these countries anyway except Egypt and with a LC gambit Italy joins immediately (so it doesn´t matter much when Germany reaches Paris) + it gives Axis an important readiness bonus.

Summary:

- if Germany didn´t loose too much in France and the opponent does not prepare against it, the turkish option is an option (it´s like with the spain gambit: if the enemy knows you will do it and already encountered it, then you have a problem ).

- it gives Allies a lot of opportunities all over the map (therefore it is important that they don´t know it in advance if Axis want to go for Turkey ) and to conquer Turkey in time can be difficult (Egypt is not really a problem, some german AFs and it is over there for Allies - since Vichy is neutral they even can´t retreat to Beirut).

- Axis will not be able to collect much mpps before Barbarossa, so there is a risk of not having enough units for all necessary tasks.

- A lot will depend on if Axis can hold the Caucasus against the inevitable russian counterattack and with the standard bonus mpps, Russia could be stronger than Axis for some turns (until the higher Axis income will change the situation).

- on the other side when it works like planed, then Axis will get up to several hundred mpps/turn more than Allies (and when USA finally joins then war is already over or Axis can conquer some of the missing neutrals).

[ September 23, 2004, 05:38 PM: Message edited by: Terif ]

[hellraiser]

thanks for the great input guys ...

booo to those who are pesimistic, kudos to those who are optimistic

As I mentioned, this is not extensively tested (1 or 2 times in meVSme game) but I am happy to notice that though risky and difficult, it is not a dead option

[jon_j_rambo]

This is a rather risky strategy, but if you could mask the plan, it's within the realm of possiblity. Turkey hasn't really been addressed much & rarely is invovled in the war. The supply is a big problem getting thru the mountains. There's alot of MMPs to be had in Southern Russia & if the Allies aren't prepared to defend against this or do something stupid, you never know. Sometimes these Regional type plans are dependent on the flow of the rest of the game.

It's a little unconventional, but I'm glad somebody is scheming something

Legend from Washington >>> OUT