Another post about U boats

[Sol Invictus]

There is no doubt that the Germans made many mistakes along with the Allies and when Hitler took a greater hand in strategy after '41, the Germans made some real woppers. The winner in war is usually the side that makes the fewest mistakes; overwhelming industrial capacity never hurts either.

[TrionDelta]

Sol,

I agree, least amount of mastakes along with the most productivity usley wins the day.

and since the americans didnt try to "finnese" the war to death (although there were instances of them doing it) they made fewer mistakes. also the americans simple plan was the best, more complex plans are harder to pull off.

[Straha]

Originally posted by Sol Invictus:

There is no doubt that the Germans made many mistakes along with the Allies and when Hitler took a greater hand in strategy after '41, the Germans made some real woppers. The winner in war is usually the side that makes the fewest mistakes; overwhelming industrial capacity never hurts either.

Actually, the problem with Hitler already showed in the Barbarossa campaign in 41. Against the opinion of all his generals he insisted on wasting time in the South because he did not recognize the importance of taking Moscow until it was too late (I do not mean the political issue and the railway junctions. I mean he missed the opportunity of enveloping the bulk of the Russian forces which had concentrated there).

Though it's true that the real ugly bunglings were made in 42. Not only the catastrophic stand-and-die orders for Stalingrad (when an outbreak was easily possible): already the moronic back and forth of the Panzer divisions between Stalingrad and the Caucasus prevented the Germans from getting Stalingrad earlier and easily when it was undefended. (At the same time the vaccillation of orders also prevented the Germans from geting the Caucasus objectives in the end.) I don't even mention the missed opportunities in Malta and Africa, Zitadelle, and the 100/1 gamble in the Ardennes in 44 which only delayed the Western Allies, but destroyed all remaining offensive power reserves of the German army (and in the end only helped the Russians to get to Berlin first, a situation everyone wanted to *avoid*).

In a way, with respect to thwarting OKW, Hitler more than once proved to be the best ally of the Allies ...

Straha

[Straha]

Originally posted by Straha:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Sol Invictus:

There is no doubt that the Germans made many mistakes along with the Allies and when Hitler took a greater hand in strategy after '41, the Germans made some real woppers. The winner in war is usually the side that makes the fewest mistakes; overwhelming industrial capacity never hurts either.

Actually, the problem with Hitler already showed in the Barbarossa campaign in 41. Against the opinion of all his generals he insisted on wasting time in the South because he did not recognize the importance of taking Moscow until it was too late (I do not mean the political issue and the railway junctions. I mean he missed the opportunity of enveloping the bulk of the Russian forces which had concentrated there).

Though it's true that the real ugly bunglings were made in 42. Not only the catastrophic stand-and-die orders for Stalingrad (when an outbreak was easily possible): already the moronic back and forth of the Panzer divisions between Stalingrad and the Caucasus prevented the Germans from getting Stalingrad earlier and easily when it was undefended. (At the same time the vaccillation of orders also prevented the Germans from geting the Caucasus objectives in the end.) I don't even mention the missed opportunities in Malta and Africa and the misconceptions of Zitadelle and the 100/1 gamble in the Ardennes in 44 which only delayed the Western Allies, but destroyed all remaining offensive power reserves of the German army (and in the end only helped the Russians to get to Berlin first, a situation everyone wanted to *avoid*).

In a way, with respect to thwarting OKW, Hitler more than once proved to be the best ally of the Allies ...

Straha</font>

[husky65]

Originally posted by Wisbech_lad:

[QB]

"North Africa. Drive your tanks into a British PAK front and minefields. Then, massively reinforce you troops (Tunisia) in an irrevelant sideshow (N Africa) and have them all surrender shortly afterwards"

Other option, let you ally collapse and give away a base to bomb Germany from, perfect example of being swamped by numbers - do we have to go into detail about the failings of the allied lack of strategy in the Med?

"Norway/ Balkans/ Greece/ Denmark/ Benelux. Have large amounts of troops tied down in mostly irrelevant sideshows fighting partisan resistance who really don’t want you in their country. "

Norway, Denmark were strategically vital - do you think the Germans would have like allied troops based there?

Balkans, propped up an ally/secure the Barbarrossa flank.

Greece, Given that the allies had moved force W into Greece, it probably was a good idea to remove them before it became well reinforced and a bomber base.

Re Having to deal with partisans - the funny thing about invading other countries, is that frequently the victims resent it, if you have a suggestion as to how to be an expansionistic militarist dictator and not face this problem, no doubt the class would like to hear it.

"Russia. Get bogged down fighting for “prestige” city. Get cut off and defeated

Kharkov – OK, give them that

Citadel. Drive tanks into Russian PAK front and minefields

Korsun/ Bagration. Get overrun, cut off and defeated in detail

Berlin. Send last strategic reserves down to Hungary to retake Budapest"

All been covered, the Generals were not the problem, Hitler was - the Allies had the opposite problem, allied leaders mostly left operations in the hands of generals, who were not very good.

"Western Front. Argue about best way to defend beaches."

So, tell us what was the best way to protect the beaches? - you mean it isn't settled?

"Waste last strategic reserves in hopeless counterattacks (Lorraine/ Ardennes) in difficult terrain"

If you don't use them they are wasted too, by then the Germans were well and truely swamped by allied material superiority - it didn't matter what they did.

"Apart from Italy & Normandy (skillfully fought delaying actions in difficult terrain) don’t see much finesse. And arguably there isn’t much finesse involved in digging into bocage and mountains…"

Perhaps you need to actually read something about delaying defense and counterattacks/spoiling attacks on the eastern front?

"Face it, after the easy victories of 39-41 both sides where much of a muchness."

Your ignorance is showing, read something. anything.

However, the Allies were always going to out

"Such finesse"

Such ignorance, and publically displayed...

[TrionDelta]

yes hitler did lose germany that war. along with there inability to produce, one german (forget wwho) said "if we had used women in our industry we may have one."

but germanys down fall could be put to alot of things, inability to produce, meglomaniac leader, low population, two war front, messing with russia, messing with america, inability to take N. africa, in ability to beat RAF, inability to cut off and destroy dunkirk evac, u get the idea.

so saying it was all hitlers fault is going over the top, but it was a major factor

[husky65]

Originally posted by Straha:

In a way, with respect to thwarting OKW, Hitler more than once proved to be the best ally of the Allies ...

There were a number of plans put forward to assasinate Hitler, permission was rufused in all cases, because it was feared that someone competent might take his place and extend the war by years.

[Wisbech_lad]

Husky.

Dealing with partisans. Simple really. Don't be an expansionist military dictator and go around invading other countries.

On Tunisia, Italy collapsed anyway. I haven't seen any suggestions that the Italian govt would have fallen if Lybia fell - in fact it only fell after the Allies invaded the homeland itself.

I stand by my statement that the sides were much of a muchness after end of 1941 or so. The loss ratios Axis:Allied after that were what you would expect from an attacking side: defending side, roughly 2:1 or less.

You say permission to assasinate Hitler was refused. Hmm, don't think the 1944 plotters ever asked permission, or the brave lone german who tried to kill Hitler at the start of the war.