No invading the US or Canada!

[Jeff Heidman]

This should be, at the least, a standard house rule, and preferably be enforced in the game itself.

If the entire United States is going to smushed into just a few hexes, then that abstraction is too great to model any potential "invasion". Same with Canada.

Jeff Heidman

[Skorpion]

While I agree that invasions of the US before anything else (see the "America first" thread) are gamey in the extreme and spoil the game, I can't see any sensible way of representing the US.

Would they automatically surrender when Russia and Britain fall?

What if they've occupied Portugal and Spain (or more) when the other two majors fall? Game Over? I don't think so!

As there is no surrender code, the only way to win the game is to invade the US. Sure, it's unrealistic, but it's all we've got.

[Norse]

Originally posted by Skorpion:

As there is no surrender code, the only way to win the game is to invade the US. Sure, it's unrealistic, but it's all we've got.

Do you mean that launching an invasion on the Americas is unrealistic, no matter what? Why?

[pzgndr]

Do you mean that launching an invasion on the Americas is unrealistic, no matter what? Why?

At the current SC scale, the distance across the Atlantic and relative sizes of the US and Canada are grossly unrealistic. If the map ever gets enlarged to more accurately represent North America and the Atlantic, then invasions could be considered. To turn the question around, do you mean defeat of the entire US in SC now is realistic no matter what? No way.

As it is, the Axis victory conditions should be limited to defeating France, Britain and USSR. If they achieve that goal, it's reasonable to have the US sue for peace and end the game. If the game appears biased toward Axis victories even at the higher settings, then more tweaking for game balance may be necessary.

[Les the Sarge 9-1b]

Suspension of disbelief, it always comes down to suspension of disbelief.

I routinely slag "what ifs" when the author goes from reasoned analytical real world what ifs, and decides to jump off the deep end with comic book lunacy.

There was never any chance of Hitler invading the continent of North America. Ideologically or priority based decisions like that would never be on the table.

Sealion is a great leap of imagination in some cases. The idea of crossing the Atlantic is dumb enough to entirely destroy all credibility.

Having the opportunity for grotesque idiocies, is reason for immediate editing. It the same with wargames the operate soley on the Russian Front, and aaaaabsolutely need to dump Berlin on the map.

Sure I don't want to be completely and unequivocally constrained to merely act of WWII exactly as it happened, but then, it IS a game simulating WW2.

If it departs from WW2 and enters a dream world not worthy of a historians consideration, then it is no longer worthy of being considered at all.

That is why I don't resent being stuck with wargames that enforce certain real historical conditions. The idea is to see "could I have done better".

[Canuck_para]

I don't mind conquering the US and Canada in a game vs the AI, but I don't think in it should be used against a human, especially the Germans sneaking an invasion on Canada, if both units are in Britain as no more units can be raised in Canada.

On this same vein, if the UK is conquered does the US get the Canadian production?

[Panzer Cmdr]

I believe Canada would be treated like any other minor, only the U.K. can support them and only the U.K. gets there MPP's. (except of course when conquered they go to the conquerer). The U.S. would have to send their own troops to Canada to prevent Axis invasion.

[Canuck_para]

Originally posted by Panzer Cmdr:

I believe Canada would be treated like any other minor, only the U.K. can support them and only the U.K. gets there MPP's. (except of course when conquered they go to the conquerer). The U.S. would have to send their own troops to Canada to prevent Axis invasion.

What happens to the Canadian points if Britain is conquered?? They would not have surrendered. Canada would have allied itself with the US and kept building it's military. So why would the US not get the points and why can't Canada rebuild it's army?

I feel that the game should allow allies minor to send points to the nearest ally if the UK surrenders. Of course I also beleive you should be able to rebuild minor country's units. I am not sure why this was not included in the game. I agree there should be a manpower limit for the minors. Maybe the solution is allowing only destroyed units to be replaced so that the armies don't get bigger than historically possible.

[arby]

Originally posted by Les the Sarge 9-1b:

There was never any chance of Hitler invading the continent of North America. Ideologically or priority based decisions like that would never be on the table.

Certainly not within the time frame of this game. Look at it this way: it took us the better part of three years to build and assemble the landing craft and logistical support necessary to run an invasion across the 20 miles of the English Channel. How long do you figure it's going to take the Germans to build the 30 or so aircraft carriers necessary to provide air support for n an amphibious invasion across the Atlantic Ocean?

Basically, I don't pay a whole lot of attention to the game's victory conditions. If I'm playing the Axis, if I conquer Russia it's usually only a matter of time before I conquer Britain. Most opponents give up at that point, which mirrors what probably would have happened: the US and Britain suing for peace. If I'm playing the Allies, I figure if I get to Berlin before the allies actually did, I win.

But conquer the US? Please.

[Panzer39]

Perhaps in a future patch or most likely the next SC, we can see an expanded map that incorporates more of North America. This would make the US easier to defend and maybe allow the axis to invade Canada and fight there way into the US. Better yet, an invasion could be launched from Mexico! As for the current situation, I think the US, no matter its entry status, should at least declare war on the Axis the moment transports reach its sure. Maybe even get a boost in forces to account for all the troops that would be transferred to the immediately, similar to when the USSR transfers its Siberian Army. This would allow the AI to set up a landing blockading force and the US navy a crack at the Axis transports. It would also deter an Eraly invasion from the Axis. The Axis player whould have to wait until he at least took canada and had built up a substantial air force there to destroy the US troops defending the coast. As for the Nazis not being able to launch an attack against the US, this is most likely true if one follows a historical timeline. However, like many on this forum have stated, the main joy from this game comes from the ability to rewrite history. When I play SC I base my decisions on what I would have done, not pretend I'm Hitler. My panzers role into the Ukraine as liberators (no Russian partisans and I have members of the Jewish faith fighting under Rommel to retake their holy land from the Imperialistic British. With a little different leadership, who knows what the Third Reich could have accomplished. Therefore instead of making the claim that the US and Canada should never be invaded, lets try to think of ways to make them more realistic to knock out!

[Les the Sarge 9-1b]

I have to agree with Arby.

The point of a wargame is to "intentionally" recreate history. Then see if you can do it a bit better.

Knock out the Russians, yes that is winning the game in my opinion. Land successfully in France in 43, yes that is darned impressive.

But invading Canada, no that much of a flight of fantasy is best left for scifi games.

As was mentioned, getting German forces across the Atlantic, is a fashion the real world nation of the time would have required, is not presently reflected in the game.

There is a place for sneaky gamey moves in all games. But when my wargame becomes a joke, a farce and loses credibility, it loses my interest rapidly.

I only want to know, if I really AM as good as history's great leaders. I don't want to know if its possible to sneak a gamey stunt into a game.

[Norse]

I see no problem with the idea itself, that USA or Canada can be invaded.

I asked before and I ask again, why not? Is God himself sinking every axis ship on it's way? Please.

Of course it would haveto be under given circumstances, where the Axis somehow found the opertunity to do this. Once this opertunity is gained, who is to say "no! doing that clearly is impossible". The allies did it, why can't the axis if the tables turn?

I agree that USA should be given more space to defend on, something the size of France would be nice. Though someone said the map already reached it's size limit, some memory thing, ask Hubert.

My only question is why exactely can't an over-ambitious axis leader decide to go for USA? Once that is answered, I feel that we can get over to the more important issues, and that is to discuss how USA can successfully defend itself in this game - and possibly look for limitations in that regard, and then discuss how to adress thoose limitiations.

~Norse~

[ September 06, 2002, 06:11 AM: Message edited by: Norse ]

[pzgndr]

I agree that USA should be given more space to defend on, something the size of France would be nice.

No, something the size of the USA would be the only acceptable option if invasions are to be considered seriously. And that assumes a big what-if by allowing the Axis an opportunity to conduct trans-oceanic invasions with armies and tank groups, something I don't believe was historically possible but that's beside the point. The argument is not so much that invasions should not happen, but that the current scale is all wrong and provides the Axis an unfair advantage.

We lose sight of the game objective with defeat of the US included as a victory condition. This is a European Theater game and the US is included on the map to represent its resources and provide deployment hexes. Invading the US early by surprise is a very gamey tactic and invading later after France, Britain and USSR are defeated is irrelevant. The US and Canada need to be included in the game, but do not need to be part of the victory conditions or vulnerable to unfair invasions.

[Panzer39]

It seems that everyone assumes that the Germans would try to land in Boston and force an invasion like the US did at Normandy. Whose to say that by the time the Axis did try such an "impossible" act they wouldn't already have bases set up in the UK, Greenland, or South America? Why does the attack have to come from the Atlantic, why not the Gulf of Mexico? What if Japan won the Battle of Midway and had taken Alaska and invaded Hawaii which forced the US to fight a two front War on its home soil? Very improbable yes, impossible no. This is not possible to represent in the current SC but maybe in a future one. As for this one, does no one have thoughts on my ideas to dissuade an early invasion of the US? Which are America "transferring west coast forces" like the soviets transfer Siberian Army and declaring war once transports are spotted of the coast?

[Jeff Heidman]

Originally posted by Panzer39:

It seems that everyone assumes that the Germans would try to land in Boston and force an invasion like the US did at Normandy. Whose to say that by the time the Axis did try such an "impossible" act they wouldn't already have bases set up in the UK, Greenland, or South America? Why does the attack have to come from the Atlantic, why not the Gulf of Mexico? What if Japan won the Battle of Midway and had taken Alaska and invaded Hawaii which forced the US to fight a two front War on its home soil? Very improbable yes, impossible no. This is not possible to represent in the current SC but maybe in a future one. As for this one, does no one have thoughts on my ideas to dissuade an early invasion of the US? Which are America "transferring west coast forces" like the soviets transfer Siberian Army and declaring war once transports are spotted of the coast?

Simple way to dissuade them -

Make it against the rules in a human v human game.

If we wanted to code it into the game, simply have Hubert make the US inaccessible to Axis units.

Berkut

[Panzer39]

Originally posted by Jeff Heidman:

Simple way to dissuade them -

Make it against the rules in a human v human game.

If we wanted to code it into the game, simply have Hubert make the US inaccessible to Axis units.

I don't think that this is really a Human v Human issue. A good allied player could easily prevent an early invasion of the US by sending the RN out to sink the German transports who most likely could not have a heavy escort unless the Italians have broken out of the Med. In a way it forces the RN to patrol the Atlantic to watch out for Axis ships, which by the way is what most of their time was spent doing. I think it is more of an AI issue since the AI never sends UK help to the US.

[Desert Dave]

As originally posted by Bill Macon:

Invading the US early by surprise is a very gamey tactic and invading later after France, Britain and USSR are defeated is irrelevant

It is indeed. Until map is enlarged (... what a short happy trip it's been, eh Papa Fritz?) this option is frivolous and, as Les the Sarge has said, out of the realm of reasonable possibility and therefore MERELY gamey.

Could the Axis have invaded through other places, such as Mexico, or set up bases in Cuba or Bermuda? Yes.

IF Germany had soundly beaten Russia and reached a political consensus about VASTLY upgrading the Kreigsmarine. To include countless transports and carriers and trained marines. So what are we looking at -- 1947, 48? Out of the scope of this game surely.

But IMO, as currently constituted, taking a sliver of the East Coast would not have "conquered" America anyway. When the map is significantly larger, then it would be a fair encounter, but not until then.

[iolo]

I think every American here knows in his heart that God would have indeed struck down the axis transports.

[Desert Dave]

As originally posted by iolo:

I think every American here knows in his heart that God would have indeed struck down the axis transports.

And what of all the many many millions of Americans who believe in a Higher -- Being, Power, Essence... WITHOUT also believing that the Higher Whatever -- DOES interfere in the tiny & mundane doings of the various human colonies?

Or, who believe that post-modern reductionism and easy to please Irony -- is now, and really should be -- passe?

Or, who believe that mighty coastal artillery and daring P-38s and citizen soldiers with their lanterns and broomsticks are an illusion? As, the transports out of the Atlantic mist, are an illusion? In the way of the Buddha or cyclic reasoning bhikkhu?

What then?

(... it is the sound of one hand clapping, sorry, but that's all that anyone needs... )

[ September 06, 2002, 03:25 PM: Message edited by: Immer Etwas ]

[iolo]

Um, in such a case the Canadian winters would have gotten them.

[Desert Dave]

Or even, the Mississippi summers, when the heat is akin to a velvet fist.

[iolo]

And the fatherland would have to make a special request to all aryan families to donate t-shirts, shorts, sunblock, and wife-beaters to our brave men on foreign soil!

[Norse]

Yeah well, it did happen to the Spanish armada, so God might strike again :eek:

What about giving USA 2000 MPP's in the case of axis invasion? That could be the variant of the Sovjet "siberian armies", as well as represent the "off-map" cost of resources the Axis must (or should) take into consideration. Not to mention that an actual invasion now, is much more unlikely, in which case the US never get's 2000 extra MPP's representing the off-map drain. Any thoughts? Bad idea?

~Norse~

[Panzer39]

Originally posted by Norse:

Yeah well, it did happen to the Spanish armada, so God might strike again :eek:

What about giving USA 2000 MPP's in the case of axis invasion? That could be the variant of the Sovjet "siberian armies", as well as represent the "off-map" cost of resources the Axis must (or should) take into consideration. Not to mention that an actual invasion now, is much more unlikely, in which case the US never get's 2000 extra MPP's representing the off-map drain. Any thoughts? Bad idea?

~Norse~

I would agree except the US would have to get these MPPS before the AXIS landed their troops (ie the turn where Axis Transports show up along the coast). Otherwise the US would not be able to buy their new units for lack of places to put them.

[Les the Sarge 9-1b]

This Germany invading is idiocy at best.

Hitler lands troops in Continental US. Next US uses a combination of sheer industrial might combined with incredible financial strength coupled with national outrage, and obliterates German force in glut of sheer carnage.

Don't think it would happen, hmmmm you clearly haven't lived next to the US long enough then

Germany invading isn't even worthy of the most lunatic what if's I have read in cheesy scifi.