Italian Surrender

[Desert Dave]

As orginally posted by Liam:

Quite frankly, the Germans were better off without Italy

As forward-thinking war-game strategists, we would surely think so.

However, look around... notice how the Bullies in your neighborhood act... they rarely stand alone (... unless they are certifiably Sociopathic, in which case they don't have a conscience, nor do they care what ANYONE else thinks... Hitler was NOT a Psycho/Sociopath)... see, they ALWAYS need some henchman, or similarly crazy cohort... :eek:

This is how they remind themselves of Importance... I am not ALONE in my deluded world-view, see... over there! is so & so, who publicly supports my grandiose ambition.

I will merely USE him and then pitch him to the howling wolves (... who were once apparently admiring and forgiving), no matter, he serves the purpose... of being EQUALLY insane.

Hitler was a coward, plain and simple, and all cowards REQUIRE... 1) sycophants 2) an appreciative audience, and 3) someone to BLAME when the whole damned Haunted House collapses... from the weight of its' own brute... banality.

***(please note: on two occasions I have alluded to Hitler/Musso as... crazy, and insane. There are many, many different kinds of "insanity" and, being sociopathic is merely one of the many. True that "insanity" is largely a subjective phenomena, and yet... there are "scientific" ways to determine just what kind of "insanity" we are talking about... if not, from intuitional or gut-feelings... after all, from time immemorium, the "saner" members of any clan or tribe or group would roust (... if not gladly kill) any single member who threatened survival, or good Order, true?)

[ October 07, 2003, 11:51 AM: Message edited by: Immer Etwas ]

[Liam]

Immer:

Intrigueing! As a young boy one of my first documentaries consumed about WW2 stated that Hitler was not truly insane, only slighty if at all I sort of buy into the theory myself.

And as far as I know Insanity is still rather hard to prove even with modern technology? Can it be. I am not sure it can be. They see all sorts of misfiring messages in the BrainScans hehehe

Some will say Stalin was far more insane...than Hitler. I don't believe the Mouse was Insane at all. Even though I'm a big fan of movies I remeber George C. Scott playing him, and I always draw my conclusions from that character and the images I see from 30s film.. that he was actually proud, and old fashioned, etc...

[Panzer39]

From the reading I've done, I would have to say Stalin was the biggest loon of the bunch. His extreme paranoia would be enough to get him committed.

[JerseyJohn]

Britain considered pulling it's fleet out of the Eastern Med and most of it's troops out of North Africa when they had the fiasco at Dunkirk. Churchill decided to not only keep them there, but to actually send most of the British armor to Egypt.

Italy and Germany fought there to protect Italy from invasion. The British fought there not only for the Middle East but to protect the Suez Canal.

Iraqi oil was mainly used for the British Mediteranean squadron and convoys passing through. Overrated in SC, probably, but it would have been important to the Axis if they could have controlled it.

After the Sea Lion threat passed Britain continued trying to drive the Italians and Germans out of North Africa because, while they were winning there, it was a morale booster and the only place they had direct fighting against the Axis.

They couldn't just pull out because it was a link to India. For the same reason Germany had grandiose schemes of linking with Asia and getting the Indian nationalists to rise up against British rule.

At the start of the campaign Italy wanted British controlled Egypt and Sudan in order to link Libya with Ethiopia and it's other East African colonies; the Suez Canal and Red Sea would have been more important than the actual land link, which lacked roads and railroads at the time.

[JerseyJohn]

Hitler and Stalin were blatant sociopaths. Mussolini was a run of the mill dictator with a large eto and expansionist desires.

Both were mass murderers on an unimaginable scale.

Hitler's racial hatred ran so deed that he didn't even care about conquering Russia, only destroying it! His view so narrow and ridiculous that he gave tens of millions of people who welcomed him with open arms no choice other than to hate him. His attempted exterminations of the Jews and Gypsies and other groups are beneath contemt and also absurd moves for any leader to have taken.

In addition to the 20,000,000 or so of his own people Stalin killed during the late twenties and throughout the thirties with his forced collectivazation projects and slave labor insanity, and the tens of millions more he wasted during the war, he was planning a third purge in the early fifties that would have resembled Hitler's Holocaust. All the Russian Jews were to be sent to Siberia and more draconian measures taken from there.

His cronies were also to purged -- again -- this time it would have included Beria, Vorishilov, Molotov, Krushev and all who surrounded him, and probably extened to WW II Red Army leaders like Zhukov and Konev, who knew first hand how inept Stalin's leadership had actually been. The only thing that prevented this from coming to pass was his death.

It seems impossible to me to draw a comparison to Mussolini's state of mind and that of either Hitler or Stalin.

As far as the Axis goes, Mussolini was along for the ride. He saw himself as resurrecting Roman Glory, but unlike the other two he didn't advocate the killing of indeigenous populations. Italian rule in Libya and East Africa, while not a bed of roses, did not include concentration camps or gulags; the population was made a part of Mussolini's empire and not regarded as it's slaves. Of course their was also a lot prejudice, which at the time was to be found everywhere, including the United States.

If he'd remained neutral we'd be remember him today in a similar light to Franco.

Another thing that is forgotten is he wanted ties with Britain and France, not Germany. When Hitler first made a move for Austria in 1935, it was Mussolini who opposed him singlehandedly. When Hitler persuaded him to reverse that stance, after the Anglo/Allied sanctions because of the Ethiopian invasion, Hitler became, literally, eternally grateful; the door was then open to further central European expansion.

The Axis was the direct result of British and French bungling and self-interest during the twenties and thirties. They did all they could, through stupid, pointless and inconsistant policies, to drive Italy and Germany together. If Russia had been at all compatable with the other two they might even have succeeded in creating a three power league to oppose them.

When it was far too late they tried to patch things up with a call Italy's sense of decency.

I doubt Mussolini would be considered insane or even particularly abnormal other than having an enlarged ego, not uncommon among politicians.

His invasion of Ethiopia was based upon a late 19th Century agreement with Britain and France which was conveniently forgotten in the 1930s. Originally Britain and France wanted all of Africa to be controlled by European countries. They feared successful African States would be a threat to their rule. Italy was invited to take more of Abyssnia partly because it was wedged between existing Anglo-French colonies and partly because they already had more than they could handle and didn't think the place was particularly important economically.

As for the Italians using ruthless methods against the Ethiopians, the British and French did not win their colonies by giving chamber music recitals. Nobody cried when gatling guns and field artillery were used against the Zulus, in a place then known as Zululand!

[ October 07, 2003, 04:13 PM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ]

[Iron Ranger]

how inept Stalin's leadership had actually been. The only thing that prevented this from coming to pass was his death

His assination you mean. After the fall of the USSR documents came out that indicated Molotov has Stalin posioned. The top dogs had seen two other purges and knew what was comming. And due to the cold war and weakened state of Russia in the late 40s and early 50s they had acculmulated (sp) enough power (fear?) to get the job done.

Nice read JJ, I always enjoy your posts on the 'thought lines' of the leaders in 1930-40s. My faverote post could go in here, the one dealing with Von Runsattes veiw of Itialian military powers (1 Mt divison to control the pass's, 2 Mt divisons to close the pass's, and entire army group to support the Itialiand military).

[JerseyJohn]

Iron Ranger,

Thanks and likewise.

That von Rundstedt remark is always fun to read. He used to regularly refer to Hitler as "The Corporal" and made frequent caustic remarks, most of which found their way their way to The Fuhrer. I think he was encouraged to retire twice and brought out of retirement three times -- he was already retired before being brought back to command an Army Group in Poland.

Aside from von Manstein he probably said the most to say about Hitler's handling of the war.

Agreed, one or more of the Inner Circle almost certainly had him killed. The old boy didn't even trust his personal physician, throwing his medication away and having the same Rx made up by a more trusted chemist.

The first thing Molotov, Krushchev and the others did was to hold a closed meeting with locked doors and no sentries. The topic of discussion, acted upon immediately, strangle Beria!

A very sensible act. From there it was a bloodless transition to Krushchev and the remaining old boys, Malenkov, Voroshilov and Molotov all lived to a ripe old age.

Key Soviets who survived Stalin.

Beria, Head of the KGB and marked for death by Stalin, the other survivors banned together to kill him with their own hands at a secret meeting.

Molotov, a friend of Stalin's from the Lenin era and Chief Foreign Minister, was also marked for death in Stalin's planned second purge. The obvious candidate after Beria, he was politically outmaneuvered by the underated Nikita Krushchev.

Malenkov, a vague but able figure who was never far from Stalin during the later years.

Krushchev, a high ranking Party Boss and one of the Chief Commisars during the war, he denounced Stalin, first at a Party Conference and publicly in 1957. The corpse of four years was removed from Lenin's Tomb in an opening act of De-Stalinization..

This photo, taken with then Vice President Nixon, was from TV footage during his July 1959 tour of the United States. Though seeking to ease tensions between the two countries, he was misquoted as saying, "We Will Bury You!", which became one of the most quoted phrases of the Cold War. His message was actually that the Soviet Union would pass the USA, in which he admitted that the United States was still ahead.

Fidel Castro, who seemed pro-United States during his first six months in office, almost simultaneously announced Communist rule in Cuba and the Soviet threat became more believable.

Voroshilov, a mediocre general but another of Stalin's key men, he was, with Molotov, one of the few from the Lenin era to survive the 1930s purg. But he was marked for death this time, if Stalin hadn't died or -- as Iron Ranger says -- almost certainly been assasinated, by his friends!

[ October 08, 2003, 08:08 AM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ]

[Panzer39]

von Rundstedt:

I read someplace that when the Allies invaded Normandy he received a call from a subordinate stating that the Allies had landed in force and questioning what should they do. Von Rundstedt replied surrender and hung up the phone. I am not sure if it is true but I found it very funny and fitting with his character.

[JerseyJohn]

Yes, it is true, as far as I know.

The conversation was his call to Wilhelm Keitel, his boss. After refusing to awaken Hitler for authorization to move the reserve Panzer Divisions -- which were under Hitler's personal command,, Keitel lamented that he also had bad news from Italy and the east.

The world's highest ranking clerk wanted something from the Western Front that would cheer Hitler up. He foolishly asked, "What am I to tell the Fuhrer?" Which is when von Rundstedt made his famous remark. Later that day he was asked to go back into retirment. I believe he was replaced by Kesselring, then brought back for the Ardennes Offensive.

A lot of Americans regarded von Rundstedt as Hitler's best general.

[ October 08, 2003, 04:02 AM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ]

[Liam]

Rommel was forced to commit suicide in '44... due to the link with the assassination. Should Strategic Command reflect this???

Who was Germany's best Generals... They had a good amount of them... Perhaps the fact they also had a chance to distinguish themselves with experience and many battles is what brought them out. That or the historical German Military Doctrine?

Some people say that Russia was a much weaker nation before the industrialization. At great cost of human life, Stalin turned the nation into a Modern Power. I'm not sure the full implications of the 5 year plans but I'm sure it helped the 'gross production' of Fighters, artillery and Armor the Russians were capable of by the time war hit Europe in '39 onward. There is no question in my mind that Stalin was a very 'cruel' Leader. Perhaps one of the worst up there with Vlad the Impaler<Wallachian Blood Drinker hehehe?>, Countess Bathory, Ivan the Terrible... For the Orthodox side of the World... but that kind of goes with Russian History, ironically enough. I've never heard of Stalin's ethnic stance really, to be honest. So I can't judge him for being a Genocidal Fanatic, like Hitler. Seems he was more accepting of the Population on the Whole, just don't whistle the Words Rebel, Civil, Freedom...or you might spend the rest of your life in the Goulag. I think that at least he put his opressed to work for something, Whilst the Germans senselessly killed them off..

Regardless by the early 50s, Stalin had become obsolete and was replaced with a more able Leader, who did the right thing the Old Fashioned Way of removing your Opponent. Poison

Regardless of their early defeats,Russia, fielded Massive Armies. Their achievements are unparralleled amongst Western Powers. They did take the brunt of the Greatest Army in the World as of 1941<the Wermacht> on full force and defeated it singlehandely. IMHO

The Germans weren't near as Powerful until we let them get there. As I said before We gave the the fiesty Czechs and the lovely T38 tanks. With a few modifications it's considered to be on par with the early Panzer III models.

The Italians it seems weren't prepared for War, and SC grossly misrespresents their actual fighting abilities IMHO... they should be more like Rumania and Bulgaria combined... With a navy and airforce

The Italians didn't have "a great Reason for War," the Germans had a score to settle...I think that all in all that effected Morale. Also the fact their equipment wasn't up to date, their leadership wasn't in the field<represented by no HQs at time of their DOW, Fall of France in SC> and not a single plane? What a minute, not one airplane? hehe I'm sure they had an equal airforce to the PAF, FAF, or SAF

[Liam]

oopsies, Bathory was a Catholic, no?

[John DiFool]

Apparently the drilling technology of the time

wasn't sufficient to reach the oil reserves

under Libya that were discovered and exploited

after the war. Interesting what-if along those

lines (tho you have the Italian merchant navy

having to run the Malta gauntlet to get it back

to the mainland...).

John DiFool