SC owners - who's playing Hearts of Iron?

[HumbleOne]

I think I was talking about resources like oil. Resources and the lack of resources played (I think) the fundamental role in the decisons made during WW2. I was reading another post from a gentlemen from sweden and he mentioned that sweden had a terrible time getting a basic supply of oil during WW2. He mentioned a quota system where the US would only sell X amount of oil to Sweden just for their internal use. You get the picture, the US made sure there was no surplus that could be sold to Germany. Now Sweden was neutral in the war, japan was an outright enemy of the US. So they would get no quota.

Considering that Japan started the war because they needed oil which other nations would not sell them is pretty important. Why would Japan go to war if they had a magical spot market that provided all they needed? The other interesting thing is that American submarine doctorine waged a relentless and highly effective war agaisnt the Japanese merchant marine. Lack of basic fuel and other resources seriously hamstrong the Japanese war effort. If there was a spot market ready for Japan, only fraction of the oil would ever get through. The American submarine force was very effective.

Same with Britian, the Germans almost knocked/straved Britian out of the war because of the uboats. The Uboats have no effect on spot market, how are you gonna cripple Britian if the spot market defys german uboats. During the war there was no magical spot market and German uboats almost won the war.

Whatever IBM,Ford,etc contributed to the German war effort it was insignificant when compared the role the lack of oil had on German stragetic thought. What exactly are you surprised about, that Germany more or less nationalized American property in Germany(its a war). Ok what would you do if Germany nationalized your property. And then the war ended these corporation got there property back plus got compensation from the US government. The fact that they got any money back is just an indication how much political power they had. P Your talking like American CEO's in 1943 were flying over to the ruhr on business trips or something. American CEO's would find themselves doing jail time when they came back. Please keep reading and hopefully you will discover the concept of total war and what it meant for society. Personally I hope to hell hope Canada nationalized any Axis owned propetry when the war started. Its not like Ford profits from Germany were being repartiated in the US.

So looks whos talking about being naive. I think the problem is that you lack the perspective on what was happening at that time. Let give you an example, what would happen to American CEO that was founding Osama. Trust me hear it would not be pretty, that or worst would happen to American CEO's that somehow funded Germany. What you have pointed out is trivia, in other words when the supreme commanders of nations where discussing the war effort they were talking about how to cripple other nations. They were talking about massive amounts of basic economic stock and how to deny there enemies that basic stock. They were not talking about an insignificant item like nationalized american property.

[JerseyJohn]

Humble One --

Nobody's saying you're points aren't valid, they are. The special interests missions you bring up fecieously remind me of Joseph Heller's novel Catch-22 where Milo Mindenbinder leases the American B-25s to Germany and the Germans pay him to bomb his own airbase!

What we were talking about was primarily -- as summed up so well by Immers -- war profiteering, and in Europe it took place on a corporate mega-scale. If Japan had been surrounded by some neutrals no doubt it would have happened there as well.

You're perfectly right, Germany had a fatal oil shortage and if HOI has her buying oil from Russia or the U. S., etc., then it's obviously a and should be corrected. The same goes for any strategic resource.

Nobody was making light of the points you were making and they are good ones.

-- * --

"This JerseyJohn guy just confounds me. Unfortunatly the lack of methane in this atmosphere scrambles my thinking."

[ November 29, 2002, 03:33 PM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ]

[HumbleOne]

Well we will call it even then I buy into war profittering on a mega scale:). Anyways I just wany my SC at this point. The demo sucked me in, its a very highly playable game. Plus I think it would appeal to wide range of people. Acessible for a newbe and interesting enough for micromanagers.

[Carl G. E. von Mannerheim]

HoI- yes it is the epitome of micromanagement Hell.

That is exactly the reason i am going to but it!

Sc Is great. There's no doubt about that. However HoI is a completely different type of game.

HoI is a Civ game. SC is a boardgame.

CvM

[Willard]

Is there any war in history in which one side or both, were justified?

[Yohan]

HoI or EU, doesn't matter to me. No way I'm playing a "strategy game" in real time. I lovfe playing other humans and while EU was an interesting novelty it got real old quick.

[JerseyJohn]

Originally posted by Willard:

"Is there any war in history in which one side or both, were justified?"

I doubt it.

To me the best war of them all was the Fourth Crusade , which centered around a bunch of jolly knights who had no way to get to Jerusalem to slaughter Moslems for God. So the idealistic and very religious Venetians and Genoese said, "Hey, we're all Christians here, we'll be glad to transport you free of charge if you'll just do us one teensie-weensie favor along the way. Destroy that intolerable trade rival Constantinople -- and besides, they aren't even the same kind of Christians as ourselves so nobody will get in trouble or anything!"

The odd thing, of course, was that the Byzantine Empire served as Christendom's main defender against the ever dangerous Muslim expansionists.

The fleet landed at that great juncture of Europe and Asia and, much to their surprise the Byzantines found their magnificent city ravaged not by Ottomans, but by Germans borne on Italian sails. After much loss of life the city was taken and plundered, all the stolen treasure fitting neatly in the spaces once allotted to dead crusaders. The survivors, discovering they were too weak to continue to the Holy Land, appealed to the well known Italian sense of fair play and they didn't let them down, "Well, call us simply too generous, but you guys are so pitiful we'll take you back if you promise to go right home and not loiter about in our fair cities, known criminals that you are -- And thank you, we'll take those looted artifacts to help defray expenses, you're too weak and wounded to carry them in any case. -- And by the way, you guys owe us big time!"

The only truly idealistic warriors I can think of were also from the Crusades. The ones organized by children who got carried away by the New Testament passages praising people who haven't been around long enough to be corrupted.

[Just read Lord of The Flies for verification!] So they made their way down to Touluse and Marsielles where God would provide ships. From there they'd be delivered to the Holy Land where they'd convince Christian and Muslim alike that the only course was Love and Understanding.

It was in those wonderful French ports that saintly people like Hugh of Iron and William the Pig agreed to help them. Loaded and crammed onto leaky cogs the kids sailed off in the lap of luxury. A little way out the French sailors decided it was silly to go all the way to the Holy Land when there were perfectly fine Muslim slave markets much closer in Tunis and Algiers. The holy urchins were promptly sold and eventually one or two did make it to the Holy Land, in chains, and even returned home to talk about it.

Ah, the good old days, when people really believed in something!

My favorite clash is known as The Potato War . Fought in 17th century Belgium, the two oppossing armies spent the winter on opposite sides of a river, very hungry, and scrounging for food. With the first hint of spring, and before a battle could be fought, a treaty was signed. After months of privation and with no combat deaths, the troops of both sides marched home, hopefully to the wife and a decent meal.

As far as I can tell, the recurring theme of all wars is somebody wants something already possessed by somebody else.

When I was in the recently renamed Strategic Air Command a few decades back, there was an emblam you couldn't help but notice a few dozen times a day: A mighty mailed fist with lightening bolts streaking out crushing some sort of weed. The accompanyign slogan was, "Peace is our profession!"

Ah, the glories of civilized man. Peace through mutually assured and total extinction!

[ November 30, 2002, 07:21 PM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ]

[pzgndr]

I note Paradox has released the v1.01 patch for HOI. Just reading through the change log gives one an appreciation of the depth of this game, and the complexity.

Despite the casualties moving to the rear, I continue to march toward the front and the sound of the guns. Maybe v1.02 will be out and *most* of the bugs fixed by the time I get around to playing later this month ... Ha!

[Carl G. E. von Mannerheim]

I hope so too Bill, im not getting it till Christmas. Hey, How about we set up an SC player's HoI match?

CvM

[J P Wagner]

The game is still a bit buggy Bill, V1.02 will hopefully be out by Christmas....my initial impression is that they have made a mistake in using the EU engine and allowing you to play any nation. Too many ahistorical situations occur, like Romania conquering Russia, the Czechs marching into China ect. I think the game would have been better served if you were only allowed the play major powers, US, Germany, France, Italy, UK, Russia, Japan, China, and perhaps Spain. It plays too much like EU2 to the point they could have called it EU3-The Modern Years. Saying this, I do enjoy playing it, but it is not a World War II sim by any stretch of the imagination, there is simply too much latitude with the minor countries that turn it into a fantasy game...I'm not looking for a game that clones the actual outcome of WWII each and everytime but I want some degree of realism such as what SC supplies...I'll continue to play HOI and hope future patches make it more worthwhile.

[John DiFool]

Just one point/observation I want to make:

Apparently (judging from posters from CSIPGW-H

who have the game) the tech system has 59-count

them!-59 tech areas to research. It gets worse-

apparently if you make a few 'wrong' decisions

early on you will have just porked yourself

horribly-seems that there are a lot of dead-ends

which will yield no new (higher tech) units.

From a game-design perspective I cannot condone

such a system. SC would seem to get just as much

mileage out of its dozen or so categories than

HoI does out of its 59 (fifty-nine... :eek: )

categories, but is much more playable as well.

An inexplicable decision on the part of the makers

of HoI...

John DiFool

[J P Wagner]

The tech tree does have a high learning curve but it's not as daunting once you get used to it...there is a s.o.p. regarding the tech tree, and what to prioritze...it does make each game different depending upon what you concentrate on...SC's research is much more streamlined that is true, but there have been many posters here who aren't totally happy with it either... perhaps there is a middle ground between the two extremes somewhere....

[hEad]

original post by JerseyJohn:

A mighty mailed fist with lightening bolts streaking out crushing some sort of weed.

thats a great bit of prose you have there jersey.. the image gave me a good laugh!..

i would propose though, that the "weed" may just be an olive branch?

[Kuniworth]

Originally posted by J P Wagner:

The game is still a bit buggy Bill, V1.02 will hopefully be out by Christmas....my initial impression is that they have made a mistake in using the EU engine and allowing you to play any nation. Too many ahistorical situations occur, like Romania conquering Russia, the Czechs marching into China ect. I think the game would have been better served if you were only allowed the play major powers, US, Germany, France, Italy, UK, Russia, Japan, China, and perhaps Spain. It plays too much like EU2 to the point they could have called it EU3-The Modern Years. Saying this, I do enjoy playing it, but it is not a World War II sim by any stretch of the imagination, there is simply too much latitude with the minor countries that turn it into a fantasy game...I'm not looking for a game that clones the actual outcome of WWII each and everytime but I want some degree of realism such as what SC supplies...I'll continue to play HOI and hope future patches make it more worthwhile.

You are absolutely correct. In my latest game as Sweden I intervened on Finlands side in the winterwar against the Sovietunion. In the meantime Romania attacked the soviet union and conquered it to the Urals because all forces were on the finish border.

Finally I managed to breakthrough on the karelian isthmus. Got controll over Leningrad and Finland controls Murmansk-area. Totally nuts

[J P Wagner]

When CVM gets wind of Finlands' success, he'll be aching to play HOI!.....

[ December 01, 2002, 02:37 PM: Message edited by: J P Wagner ]

[Carl G. E. von Mannerheim]

Not worry, its already on my christmans list.

CvM

[JerseyJohn]

hEad

An Olive Branch -- so that's what they look like --

Which answers why the slogan ain't. . .

. "Gardening is our Profession!"

I've always wondered who -- after SAC delivered some of it's H-Bombs -- would still be around to offer an olive branch to and what patch of earth would be uncontaminated enough for it to grow on?

--- * ---

"On my planet olive branches are red and blood is green."

[ December 02, 2002, 11:28 AM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ]

[Bruce70]

I'm personally bugged by the province (not hex)

movement: I mean for a little extra effort (look

at all those little provinces!) they could have

changed to hexes and probably have been better off

for it. As it is I wonder how they will handle

all those huge Eastern front encirclement battles,

among other things... Color me a traditionalist

if you will.

I like province based. With hex based you warp the terrain to fit the hexes; with province based, you can think of it as warping the hexes to fit the terrain. A much better solution IMO.

BTW it is not surprising that a lot of people here are not happy with HoI, or are not planning to buy it. It is a completely different game to SC, and while some can stretch their mind to play both, most will have a preference one way or the other. Don't know which I am yet, still waiting for my copy.

[ December 01, 2002, 09:10 PM: Message edited by: Bruce70 ]

[J P Wagner]

Province based is more of a challenge because of their variable sizes...sometimes you think you have a front established but there may in fact be a small border which you left undefended which could be exploited; personally I like it. The longer I play HOI, the better I like it but it is not the WWII sim that I was hoping for...as I said, to me it's EU3, which in and of itself is not a bad thing....

[Jestre]

From the posts here from people who have played HOI it sounds like a very 'loose' interpretation of WWII. It also sounds like the 'real-time' combat engine is still used. Maybe its just me but I look at real-time as just a lazy way to program; having time-management replace real strategy/tactics...

[J P Wagner]

Originally posted by Jestre:

From the posts here from people who have played HOI it sounds like a very 'loose' interpretation of WWII. It also sounds like the 'real-time' combat engine is still used. Maybe its just me but I look at real-time as just a lazy way to program; having time-management replace real strategy/tactics...

-Yes, it's a loose interpretation of WWII.

-Yes, real time is not the way to play a game of this complexity and size.

-Saying that, I enjoy playing it since I like EU2..if you don't like EU2 or not interested in an EU2 sequel then this game isn't for you...

[Kuniworth]

Here is my criticism against HoI:

First of all let me just say that Paradox is a great gaming company. EU1 and EU2 worked well out and were two games that maybe put the expectation on HoI to high.

Secondly I´m this kind of guy that plays war in russia, third reich and strategic command and want the big picture. I´ve studied ww2 for 16 years and want game that reflects the important aspects of ww2. I think this misses out on this.

This is my criticism;

RTS - Yes it may work if the game was not so complex. Right now you have to click all the time and you lose picture. You become stressed and make misstake - not strategic ones just misstakes because you forget to move units. And thats WRONG cause we talking about large armies. That wouldnt happen IRL. Thats why I prefer turnbased because to play the game properly in it´s current shape you have to pause all the time. And who got the time to bother about night-attacks or season. Attacks are commited all the time, there are never any pause on the fighting.

THe micromanagement is also wrong. I think the research part is great and also the diplomacy part in large(unfortunate the AI is not so good to make it work) but to place individual convoys, moving units to intercept all the time is just NOT STRATEGIC. Im also unsure if the submarine-moving is ok. to put it short; I miss auto-functions to let you focus on the big picture and thats to bad. HoI will end up attracting axis & allied fans and thats ok, but all us grognards outthere, and we are quite many, will turn our back on HoI.

I´m also not sure if the trade-system works adequate. Because it misses on some vital part as Villain remarked.

Finally we conclude that the idea of beeing able to play every singel country in the world are not working. I´m not sure how Paradox can succeed in patch away all strange happeings when you play aggressive as a minor. The AI is just to hard to code to face all possibilities. Compare that with a game where you only can play the major countris - what a realistic and fun game it would be.

So look. I still believe that this game got some nice features. And I give my respect to Paradox for recognizing the demand for a true strategic and global game about world war 2.

I want a game of ww2 for all the people outthere. The company that succeeds in doing this will not only make a buck but also create a feature for strategic gaming.

[Brian Rock]

Haven't played HOI, but the RTS aspect of EU wasn't a problem because you can vary it from fast to very slow.

Most of the time I'd play on 1 minute = 1 year, but when a war broke out I'd drop to 1 minute = 1 month. Once the initial burst of orders went in I could usually go back to 1 minute = 1 year until something major happened.

I manage to make lots of mistakes, never due to time pressure.

[General Billote]

The Free French return......Stuffed with good old American turkey! Great thread guys...I've already picked up H.O.I as well....and it's fun and it's kinda kooky and yes very buggy. All in all it reminds me of an old Apple II game called Colonial Conquest, anybody remember that old bird? The strange thing about H.O.I is that it is massively complicated and they shipped it with an absolutely useless manual. The tech tree makes Civ III look small by comparison. It's easy to see why noone has tried a game on this scale... The A.I just can't cope with so many variables...If you play as a minor country and do something unusual the whole world descends into absolute chaos.

For instance: Italy (player country) declared war on republican Spain but hasn't been keeping up on current events i.e ( Republican Spain has allied with Germany?) Germany declares war on Italy i.e ( before it is done conquering France). Italy conquers Germany and annexs the Third Reich... Silly stuff but fun...

If S.C is an apple than, I do believe, H.O.I is a pomagranite!

I personally like to conquer South America with the Boys from Brazil and then take the Panama Canal from the U.S. Next.....Perhaps South Africa...make them speak Portugese. Well there you go. H.O.I in a nutshell.

[Panzer Cmdr]

I too am thinking about getting a copy of HOI but am not willing to pay the initial cost of $49.99 US as I have seen it advertized. I bought EU1 for $2.99 and I liked it (probally because it was so cheap). Then I went and bought EU2 for $29.99 and was not so thrilled. I am not a fan of real time but I think it said the game could be paused or slowed to simulate turn play - yes it could but that was still not the same.

I will get it though (when it comes down in cost) for the grand world play and to try some bizarre games of conquering the world with the fanatical warriors of Easter Island.

Hopefully though Hubert will get back from his Sabbitical and get into SC2 with newly foung vigor to provide us with the turn-based grand strategy game (with options on micromanagement of resources, weather, linked techs, air power, island combat, more units, timed builds, stacking,etc. etc.) that we desire and would willing pay $49.99 for.